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12 Men on the Field call
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\"Grassy\" Noll



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:12 pm    Post subject: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
and an abuse of replay.
And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
spot?
Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
From: Polarhound
Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
Subject: Re: 12 men on the field

sgjrfrtn wrote:
> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
> it. He made the right call.


For reference purposes:

http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf


NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
number 5:


Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
Referee
on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
the
Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
warrants
the change.


Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
situations only:


(a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
line.
2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
zone, and end line.
3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.


(b) Passing Plays:
1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.


(c) Other Detectable Infractions:
1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
fumble
by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
the
play.
Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
to
the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
any
advance is nullified.
Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
recovery
of the fumble.
Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
to
which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
stand.
Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
4. Touching of a kick.
5. Number of players on the field.


Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
1. Status of the clock
2. Proper down
3. Penalty administration
4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
6. Forceouts
7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
8. Field goals
9. Inadvertent Whistle

Archived from group: alt>sports>football>pro>pitt-steelers
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\"Grassy\" Noll



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

Yeah...I remember the time Cowher shoved that photo in the ref's shirt
pocket after the game for a 12 men call.
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John Peterson



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:27 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message @m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
> though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
> saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
> misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
> If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
> the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
> administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
> thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
> charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
> see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
> been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
> for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
> and an abuse of replay.
> And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
> My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
> spot?
> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
> From: Polarhound
> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
> Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
> Subject: Re: 12 men on the field
>
> sgjrfrtn wrote:
>> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
>> it. He made the right call.
>
>
> For reference purposes:
>
> http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
>
>
> NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
> number 5:
>
>
> Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
> Referee
> on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
> official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
> the
> Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
> warrants
> the change.
>
>
> Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
> situations only:
>
>
> (a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
> 1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
> line.
> 2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
> zone, and end line.
> 3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
> 4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
>
>
> (b) Passing Plays:
> 1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
> 2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
> 3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
> 4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
> 5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
> 6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
> 7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
>
>
> (c) Other Detectable Infractions:
> 1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
> 2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
> fumble
> by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
> the
> play.
> Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
> to
> the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
> any
> advance is nullified.
> Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
> recovery
> of the fumble.
> Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
> to
> which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
> stand.
> Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
> complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
> 3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
> 4. Touching of a kick.
> 5. Number of players on the field.
>
>
> Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
> 1. Status of the clock
> 2. Proper down
> 3. Penalty administration
> 4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
> 5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
> 6. Forceouts
> 7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
> 8. Field goals
> 9. Inadvertent Whistle

So -- this is interesting. Note right above in #8: Field Goals are
non-reviewable plays? That would mean that when the Browns defeated the
Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted? That's how I
interpret it...
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\"Grassy\" Noll



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 1:41 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

On Feb 5, 11:27 am, "John Peterson" wrote:
> So -- this is interesting.  Note right above in #8:  Field Goals are
> non-reviewable plays?  That would mean that when the Browns defeated the
> Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted?  That's how I
> interpret it...- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

You are correct. And IIRC, the announcers on that game mentioned that
replay should not have been used for that, as did every talking head
on the recap shows the rest of the day. I recall one of them joking
about "I'm sure the league will have a memo out before the end of the
day".
That being said.., THERE IS NO EXCUSE for that call. Pats trolls
howled about SBXL and the "ticky tack" comments. Geez...not even ONE
talking head is saying "ticky tack"...and this goes WAY beyond that!
But nobody dares to question the media's darling Patriots.
What am I saying?...the COLTS get all the calls! ;^)
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Tank McGee



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

"\"Grassy\" Noll" wrote in
1700-4d7d-9990-9bb0141f42ef@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:

> I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
> thoug

I'm in favor of using video replay to correct ANY incorrect call.

The NFL is too cheap to pay full-time refs so replay is a much-needed tool.

They should update the rules to allow for challenges like this, if they
haven't already.
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Strickland



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 32

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:37 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

>
>"\"Grassy\" Noll" wrote in
>1700-4d7d-9990-9bb0141f42ef@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>> thoug
>
>I'm in favor of using video replay to correct ANY incorrect call.

Sorry but it is just a game and part of the game is the officials... if you want
to replay everything then take to refs off the field and let the cameras do
every play and have 3 minutes between snaps so that a panel of judges can review
every play from every angle to see if anything was done wrong and then have a
discussion with each judge to determine if anything might have been wrong. In
the meantime, I'm switching the channel for the discovery channel and shark
week...



>
>The NFL is too cheap to pay full-time refs so replay is a much-needed tool.

Full time officials are not necessarily better refs... look at basketball!!!!

>
>They should update the rules to allow for challenges like this, if they
>haven't already.


--
GOING FOR 6!
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\"Grassy\" Noll



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 2:49 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

Plus, it kinda flies in the face of:
"We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage
while the game was in progress."

:^)
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Tank McGee



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 10:52 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

Strickland wrote in @drn.newsguy.com:

>
>>
>>"\"Grassy\" Noll" wrote in
>>
>>1700-4d7d-9990-9bb0141f42ef@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>> I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the
>>> posters was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick
>>> (even thoug
>>
>>I'm in favor of using video replay to correct ANY incorrect call.
>
> Sorry but it is just a game and part of the game is the officials...
> if you want to replay everything then take to refs off the field and
> let the cameras do every play and have 3 minutes between snaps so that
> a panel of judges can review every play from every angle to see if
> anything was done wrong and then have a discussion with each judge to
> determine if anything might have been wrong. In the meantime, I'm
> switching the channel for the discovery channel and shark week...
>
>
>
>>
>>The NFL is too cheap to pay full-time refs so replay is a much-needed
>>tool.
>
> Full time officials are not necessarily better refs... look at
> basketball!!!!
>
>>
>>They should update the rules to allow for challenges like this, if
>>they haven't already.
>
>

That's why they limit the number of challenges.
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GraveDigger



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

"John Peterson" wrote in message @giganews.com...
> ""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message
> @m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>> though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
>> saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
>> misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
>> If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
>> the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
>> administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
>> thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
>> charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
>> see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
>> been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
>> for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
>> and an abuse of replay.
>> And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
>> My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
>> spot?
>> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
>> From: Polarhound
>> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
>> Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
>> Subject: Re: 12 men on the field
>>
>> sgjrfrtn wrote:
>>> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
>>> it. He made the right call.
>>
>>
>> For reference purposes:
>>
>> http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
>>
>>
>> NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
>> number 5:
>>
>>
>> Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
>> Referee
>> on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
>> official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
>> the
>> Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
>> warrants
>> the change.
>>
>>
>> Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
>> situations only:
>>
>>
>> (a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
>> 1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
>> line.
>> 2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
>> zone, and end line.
>> 3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
>> 4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
>>
>>
>> (b) Passing Plays:
>> 1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
>> 2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
>> 3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
>> 4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
>> 5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
>> 6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
>> 7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
>>
>>
>> (c) Other Detectable Infractions:
>> 1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
>> 2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
>> fumble
>> by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
>> the
>> play.
>> Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
>> to
>> the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
>> any
>> advance is nullified.
>> Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
>> recovery
>> of the fumble.
>> Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
>> to
>> which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
>> stand.
>> Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
>> complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
>> 3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
>> 4. Touching of a kick.
>> 5. Number of players on the field.
>>
>>
>> Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
>> 1. Status of the clock
>> 2. Proper down
>> 3. Penalty administration
>> 4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
>> 5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
>> 6. Forceouts
>> 7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
>> 8. Field goals
>> 9. Inadvertent Whistle
>
> So -- this is interesting. Note right above in #8: Field Goals are
> non-reviewable plays? That would mean that when the Browns defeated the
> Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted? That's how I
> interpret it...
>

That wasn't a "review" it was a "post-play" discussion by the referees.
Replay video was not looked at. It's the same as when a ref picks up a flag
after a discussion with another ref.
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hexHeadŽ



Joined: 25 Nov 2007
Posts: 42

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 11:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

On Tue, 05 Feb 2008 17:19:10 GMT, Tank McGee
wrote:

>"\"Grassy\" Noll" wrote in
>1700-4d7d-9990-9bb0141f42ef@m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com:
>
>> I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>> thoug
>
>I'm in favor of using video replay to correct ANY incorrect call.

the only problem I have with that is, there was no call to start with.
Bellicheat wanted to create a call where none had existed.

like somebody else already noted, once you open those floodgates,
coaches will be red-flagging EVERY play looking for holding and such,
which probably does happen to one degree or another.
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John Peterson



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 4:51 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

"GraveDigger" wrote in message $Rg1.6002@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>
> "John Peterson" wrote in message
> @giganews.com...
>> ""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message
>> @m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>>> though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
>>> saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
>>> misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
>>> If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
>>> the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
>>> administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
>>> thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
>>> charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
>>> see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
>>> been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
>>> for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
>>> and an abuse of replay.
>>> And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
>>> My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
>>> spot?
>>> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
>>> From: Polarhound
>>> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
>>> Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
>>> Subject: Re: 12 men on the field
>>>
>>> sgjrfrtn wrote:
>>>> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
>>>> it. He made the right call.
>>>
>>>
>>> For reference purposes:
>>>
>>> http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
>>>
>>>
>>> NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
>>> number 5:
>>>
>>>
>>> Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
>>> Referee
>>> on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
>>> official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
>>> the
>>> Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
>>> warrants
>>> the change.
>>>
>>>
>>> Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
>>> situations only:
>>>
>>>
>>> (a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
>>> 1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
>>> line.
>>> 2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
>>> zone, and end line.
>>> 3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
>>> 4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
>>>
>>>
>>> (b) Passing Plays:
>>> 1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
>>> 2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
>>> 3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
>>> 4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
>>> 5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
>>> 6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
>>> 7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
>>>
>>>
>>> (c) Other Detectable Infractions:
>>> 1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
>>> 2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
>>> fumble
>>> by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
>>> the
>>> play.
>>> Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
>>> to
>>> the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
>>> any
>>> advance is nullified.
>>> Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
>>> recovery
>>> of the fumble.
>>> Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
>>> to
>>> which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
>>> stand.
>>> Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
>>> complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
>>> 3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
>>> 4. Touching of a kick.
>>> 5. Number of players on the field.
>>>
>>>
>>> Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
>>> 1. Status of the clock
>>> 2. Proper down
>>> 3. Penalty administration
>>> 4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
>>> 5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
>>> 6. Forceouts
>>> 7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
>>> 8. Field goals
>>> 9. Inadvertent Whistle
>>
>> So -- this is interesting. Note right above in #8: Field Goals are
>> non-reviewable plays? That would mean that when the Browns defeated the
>> Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted? That's how I
>> interpret it...
>>
>
> That wasn't a "review" it was a "post-play" discussion by the referees.
> Replay video was not looked at. It's the same as when a ref picks up a
> flag after a discussion with another ref.

Hmmm...I don't remember it that way. I thought they had a discussion
immediately after the attempt and ruled it a miss. Then they had a more
elaborate discussion and *still* ruled it a miss when they went to the
replay booth. But, maybe I'm just thinking that's the way it happened
because we had the benefit of network replays.
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GraveDigger



Joined: 17 Jan 2008
Posts: 34

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:16 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

"John Peterson" wrote in message @giganews.com...
> "GraveDigger" wrote in message
> $Rg1.6002@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>
>> "John Peterson" wrote in message
>> @giganews.com...
>>> ""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message
>>> @m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>>>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>>>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>>>> though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
>>>> saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
>>>> misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
>>>> If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
>>>> the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
>>>> administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
>>>> thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
>>>> charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
>>>> see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
>>>> been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
>>>> for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
>>>> and an abuse of replay.
>>>> And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
>>>> My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
>>>> spot?
>>>> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
>>>> From: Polarhound
>>>> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
>>>> Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
>>>> Subject: Re: 12 men on the field
>>>>
>>>> sgjrfrtn wrote:
>>>>> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
>>>>> it. He made the right call.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> For reference purposes:
>>>>
>>>> http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
>>>> number 5:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
>>>> Referee
>>>> on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
>>>> official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
>>>> the
>>>> Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
>>>> warrants
>>>> the change.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
>>>> situations only:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
>>>> 1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
>>>> line.
>>>> 2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
>>>> zone, and end line.
>>>> 3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
>>>> 4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (b) Passing Plays:
>>>> 1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
>>>> 2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
>>>> 3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
>>>> 4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
>>>> 5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
>>>> 6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
>>>> 7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> (c) Other Detectable Infractions:
>>>> 1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
>>>> 2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
>>>> fumble
>>>> by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
>>>> the
>>>> play.
>>>> Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
>>>> to
>>>> the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
>>>> any
>>>> advance is nullified.
>>>> Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
>>>> recovery
>>>> of the fumble.
>>>> Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
>>>> to
>>>> which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
>>>> stand.
>>>> Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
>>>> complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
>>>> 3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
>>>> 4. Touching of a kick.
>>>> 5. Number of players on the field.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
>>>> 1. Status of the clock
>>>> 2. Proper down
>>>> 3. Penalty administration
>>>> 4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
>>>> 5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
>>>> 6. Forceouts
>>>> 7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
>>>> 8. Field goals
>>>> 9. Inadvertent Whistle
>>>
>>> So -- this is interesting. Note right above in #8: Field Goals are
>>> non-reviewable plays? That would mean that when the Browns defeated the
>>> Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted? That's how
>>> I interpret it...
>>>
>>
>> That wasn't a "review" it was a "post-play" discussion by the referees.
>> Replay video was not looked at. It's the same as when a ref picks up a
>> flag after a discussion with another ref.
>
> Hmmm...I don't remember it that way. I thought they had a discussion
> immediately after the attempt and ruled it a miss. Then they had a more
> elaborate discussion and *still* ruled it a miss when they went to the
> replay booth. But, maybe I'm just thinking that's the way it happened
> because we had the benefit of network replays.

There was quite a discussion about that. The ref never looked at the replay
monitor and could not as any "review" has to come from the booth at that
stage of the game. They simply discussed the play and overturned the
original call. That's always been acceptable. If they had said (which they
didn't) "After further review..." then they would have violated the replay
rules.
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\"Grassy\" Noll



Joined: 16 Nov 2007
Posts: 24

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 6:50 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

Enough with the field goal already!!
So...we are in agreement! Belichick violated replay rules, accepted
rules, not unspoken ones. RATTING OUT an opponent that didn't get
caught for a MINOR RULE INFRACTION that had no impact on the outcome
of the play and/or did not give the opponent a competitive advantage
while the game was in progress was sacrilege, according to most Pats
fans as they aired their disgust with Mangini for doing so in Week 1
of this season. Now the shoe is on the other foot...and voila...it is
genius!
Hypocrisy? Say it isn't so!

We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage
while the game was in progress." -- Bill Belichick

"Ya Can't Win 'em All" -- Trademark applied for 02/04/2008 by B.
Belichick
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John Peterson



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:18 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

"GraveDigger" wrote in message $uE.166@newssvr22.news.prodigy.net...
>
> "John Peterson" wrote in message
> @giganews.com...
>> "GraveDigger" wrote in message
>> $Rg1.6002@nlpi068.nbdc.sbc.com...
>>>
>>> "John Peterson" wrote in message
>>> @giganews.com...
>>>> ""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message
>>>> @m34g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>I have to question the 12 men on the field penalty in SB XLII. There
>>>>> is a discussion going in the Pats NG about it, and one of the posters
>>>>> was kind enough to post a link to rules to defend Belichick (even
>>>>> though they are 2006 rules). Of course, all of the Pats fans are
>>>>> saying Belichick did the right thing, but I say that he
>>>>> misinterpretted the rules AGAIN, and got away with it AGAIN.
>>>>> If you look at the bottom, under Non-Reviewable Plays, you will see
>>>>> the "Penalty Administration" is there. That means that you cannot
>>>>> administer a penalty on something that you see in the replay. The only
>>>>> thing reviewable about the 12 men rule is to challenge IF you are
>>>>> charged with the penalty incorrectly, the refs can go back to tape and
>>>>> see whether or not 12 men were indeed on the field. But NEVER have you
>>>>> been allowed to go back...watch a replay...and THEN access a penalty
>>>>> for something that was missed realtime. That is simply not allowed,
>>>>> and an abuse of replay.
>>>>> And the Patriots got the benefit of it...what are the odds?
>>>>> My question is...has the NFL addressed this call on the "Mike Pierra"
>>>>> spot?
>>>>> Newsgroups: alt.sports.football.pro.ne-patriots
>>>>> From: Polarhound
>>>>> Date: Mon, 04 Feb 2008 19:06:38 -0500
>>>>> Local: Mon, Feb 4 2008 7:06 pm
>>>>> Subject: Re: 12 men on the field
>>>>>
>>>>> sgjrfrtn wrote:
>>>>>> If a rule is in the books, any coach owes it to his team to challenge
>>>>>> it. He made the right call.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> For reference purposes:
>>>>>
>>>>> http://blogmedia.thenewstribune.com/media/2006%20NFL%20RULEBOOK.pdf
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> NFL Rule 15, Section 9. Pay particular attention to section (c),
>>>>> number 5:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reviews by Referee. All Replay Reviews will be conducted by the
>>>>> Referee
>>>>> on a field-level monitor after consultation with the other covering
>>>>> official(s), prior to review. A decision will be reversed only when
>>>>> the
>>>>> Referee has indisputable visual evidence available to him that
>>>>> warrants
>>>>> the change.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Reviewable Plays. The Replay System will cover the following play
>>>>> situations only:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (a) Plays governed by Sideline, Goal Line, End Zone, and End Line:
>>>>> 1. Scoring Plays, including a runner breaking the plane of the goal
>>>>> line.
>>>>> 2. Pass complete/incomplete/intercepted at sideline, goal line, end
>>>>> zone, and end line.
>>>>> 3. Runner/receiver in or out of bounds.
>>>>> 4. Recovery of loose ball in or out of bounds.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (b) Passing Plays:
>>>>> 1. Pass ruled complete/incomplete/intercepted in the field of play.
>>>>> 2. Touching of a forward pass by an ineligible receiver.
>>>>> 3. Touching of a forward pass by a defensive player.
>>>>> 4. Quarterback (Passer) forward pass or fumble.
>>>>> 5. Illegal forward pass beyond line of scrimmage.
>>>>> 6. Illegal forward pass after change of possession.
>>>>> 7. Forward or backward pass thrown from behind line of scrimmage.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> (c) Other Detectable Infractions:
>>>>> 1. Runner ruled not down by defensive contact.
>>>>> 2. Runner ruled down by defensive contact when the recovery of a
>>>>> fumble
>>>>> by an opponent or a teammate occurs during the continuing action of
>>>>> the
>>>>> play.
>>>>> Note 1: If the ruling of down by contact is changed, the ball belongs
>>>>> to
>>>>> the recovering player at the spot of the recovery of the fumble, and
>>>>> any
>>>>> advance is nullified.
>>>>> Note 2: Continuing action is any action that occurs through the
>>>>> recovery
>>>>> of the fumble.
>>>>> Note 3: If the Referee does not have indisputable visual evidence as
>>>>> to
>>>>> which player recovered the fumble, the ruling of down by contact will
>>>>> stand.
>>>>> Note 4: This does not apply to quarterback pass/fumbles,
>>>>> complete/incomplete passes, or the ruling of forward progress.
>>>>> 3. Forward progress with respect to a first down.
>>>>> 4. Touching of a kick.
>>>>> 5. Number of players on the field.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Note: Non-reviewable plays include but are not limited to:
>>>>> 1. Status of the clock
>>>>> 2. Proper down
>>>>> 3. Penalty administration
>>>>> 4. Runner ruled down by defensive contact (not involving fumbles)
>>>>> 5. Forward progress not relating to first down or goal line
>>>>> 6. Forceouts
>>>>> 7. Recovery of loose ball in the field of play
>>>>> 8. Field goals
>>>>> 9. Inadvertent Whistle
>>>>
>>>> So -- this is interesting. Note right above in #8: Field Goals are
>>>> non-reviewable plays? That would mean that when the Browns defeated
>>>> the Ravens with that odd bounceback, it shouldn't have counted? That's
>>>> how I interpret it...
>>>>
>>>
>>> That wasn't a "review" it was a "post-play" discussion by the referees.
>>> Replay video was not looked at. It's the same as when a ref picks up a
>>> flag after a discussion with another ref.
>>
>> Hmmm...I don't remember it that way. I thought they had a discussion
>> immediately after the attempt and ruled it a miss. Then they had a more
>> elaborate discussion and *still* ruled it a miss when they went to the
>> replay booth. But, maybe I'm just thinking that's the way it happened
>> because we had the benefit of network replays.
>
> There was quite a discussion about that. The ref never looked at the
> replay monitor and could not as any "review" has to come from the booth at
> that stage of the game. They simply discussed the play and overturned the
> original call. That's always been acceptable. If they had said (which they
> didn't) "After further review..." then they would have violated the replay
> rules.

Okay, I'd buy that; your memory is better than mine.

I bet the refs have a secret wireless signal from the booth just for these
kinds of things. Wink
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John Peterson



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue Feb 05, 2008 8:19 pm    Post subject: Re: 12 Men on the Field call Reply with quote

""Grassy" Noll" wrote in message @e10g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Enough with the field goal already!!
> So...we are in agreement! Belichick violated replay rules, accepted
> rules, not unspoken ones. RATTING OUT an opponent that didn't get
> caught for a MINOR RULE INFRACTION that had no impact on the outcome
> of the play and/or did not give the opponent a competitive advantage
> while the game was in progress was sacrilege, according to most Pats
> fans as they aired their disgust with Mangini for doing so in Week 1
> of this season. Now the shoe is on the other foot...and voila...it is
> genius!
> Hypocrisy? Say it isn't so!
>
> We have never used sideline video to obtain a competitive advantage
> while the game was in progress." -- Bill Belichick
>
> "Ya Can't Win 'em All" -- Trademark applied for 02/04/2008 by B.
> Belichick

Absolutely! No doubt that Belichick gamed the system and got away with it.
Too bad he wasn't as wiley when the Patriots were faced with 4th and 13 and
elected not to attempt a field goal.

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