That was no upset

Eddie Silver · Joined: 07 Feb 2008 Posts: 6

Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
anything slide.

As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
instinct to avoid pain.

Eddie

Archived from group: alt>sports>football>pro>miami-dolphins

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
> Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> anything slide.
>
> As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> instinct to avoid pain.
>
> Eddie

Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.

No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
interception."

TH

MBD · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 13

>> Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
>> New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
>> was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
>> a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
>> anything slide.
>>
>> As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
>> tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
>> replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
>> flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
>> instinct to avoid pain.
>>
>> Eddie
>
> Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> interception."

You're kidding, right? The Patriots' offense scored just 14 points, and
the Giants were held to 17 points, but the defense "blew the game?"

How many SB's does Brady need his defense to win for him? By my count, the
Rams and Eagles SB's were because of the defense, while in the Panthers SB
both defenses were so gassed by the 2nd half that a JAG like Jake Delhomme
was shredding the Patriots' vaunted defense.

MBD

Ron · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 51

On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
> Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> anything slide.
>
> As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> instinct to avoid pain.
>
> Eddie

It was almost like watching Tony Eason against the 85 Bears.

But I'll give Brady credit, at least he didn't start dropping into the
fetal position on every play like Eason did. That was just sad! Thank
God Berry pulled him before he got killed.

BAH · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:48:20 GMT, Eddie Silver
wrote:

>As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
>tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
>replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
>flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
>instinct to avoid pain.

He ain't that good. Don't get fooled by this season's numbers in
which 1) Brady hardly got touched by opposing teams, and 2) the
Patsies ran up the scores against lousy teams in order to pad their
statistics.

Razor · Joined: 01 Jan 2008 Posts: 6

"BAH" wrote in message @4ax.com...
> On Thu, 07 Feb 2008 11:48:20 GMT, Eddie Silver
> wrote:
>
>>As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
>>tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
>>replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
>>flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
>>instinct to avoid pain.
>
> He ain't that good. Don't get fooled by this season's numbers in
> which 1) Brady hardly got touched by opposing teams, and 2) the
> Patsies ran up the scores against lousy teams in order to pad their
> statistics.
>

I'm beginning to feel the same way. I used to think Brady was in another
stratosphere, but after watching him play a few times this year and noticing
that in most games he had ALL day long to look for receivers, I'm beginning
to think his O-line has been the primary reason for his success. I don't
have the stats to back it up, but IIRC he hasn't had many good games in
which he was pressured. Can anyone point to a single game that Brady has
excelled in after being beat up? Most, if not all, NFL QBs can put up
impressive numbers if they have all day long to throw.

tgowan · Joined: 07 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

On Feb 7, 7:13 am, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
> On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
>
> > Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> > New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> > was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> > a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> > anything slide.
>
> > As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> > tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> > replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> > flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> > instinct to avoid pain.
>
> > Eddie
>
> Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> interception."
>
> TH

As we discussed earlier, that's a pretty narrow view of what happened
in this game. You can point to the final drive and say that's where
the game was lost, as if the previous 58 minutes didn't happen. I'm
not sure, though, why you don't point to the last 35 seconds where
Brady had the ball along with 3 timeouts. Why didn't he get the ball
a few yards down field so they could kick a game-tieing filed goal?
All he had to do was complete one pass to Moss and the game goes to
OT. Right?

During the regular season the Giants scored an average of 23 points
per game on offense. The Patriots gave up an average of 17 points on
defense. Pats D held up their end of the bargain. The Pats offense,
on the other hand, played like the Dolphins. After averaging 36.8
points per game in the regular season, the Patriots offense scored 14
points in the biggest game in the NFL since 1972. If the Pats offense
only scores half their season average, they win by 1 point. When they
had one last shot to win or send the game to OT, they went 4 and out.
They couldn't even manage 1 first down. They laid down on that final
drive with 35 seconds standing between them and immortality. I guess
it was just too hard. So we witnessed the fact that when you aren't
up to shaping your own destiny, an alternate destiny is created for
you.

By the way, how much money did you lose on this game?

Terry Gowan

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

On Feb 7, 12:25 pm, tgowan wrote:
> On Feb 7, 7:13 am, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
>
> > > Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> > > New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> > > was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> > > a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> > > anything slide.
>
> > > As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> > > tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> > > replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> > > flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> > > instinct to avoid pain.
>
> > > Eddie
>
> > Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> > had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> > No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> > the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> > interception."
>
> > TH
>
> As we discussed earlier, that's a pretty narrow view of what happened
> in this game. You can point to the final drive and say that's where
> the game was lost, as if the previous 58 minutes didn't happen. I'm
> not sure, though, why you don't point to the last 35 seconds where
> Brady had the ball along with 3 timeouts. Why didn't he get the ball
> a few yards down field so they could kick a game-tieing filed goal?
> All he had to do was complete one pass to Moss and the game goes to
> OT. Right?
>
> During the regular season the Giants scored an average of 23 points
> per game on offense. The Patriots gave up an average of 17 points on
> defense. Pats D held up their end of the bargain. The Pats offense,
> on the other hand, played like the Dolphins. After averaging 36.8
> points per game in the regular season, the Patriots offense scored 14
> points in the biggest game in the NFL since 1972. If the Pats offense
> only scores half their season average, they win by 1 point. When they
> had one last shot to win or send the game to OT, they went 4 and out.
> They couldn't even manage 1 first down. They laid down on that final
> drive with 35 seconds standing between them and immortality. I guess
> it was just too hard. So we witnessed the fact that when you aren't
> up to shaping your own destiny, an alternate destiny is created for
> you.
>
> By the way, how much money did you lose on this game?
>
> Terry Gowan

None Terry. Again, everyone can rave about the Giants D all day, but
facts are facts, and the Giants final drive started from inside their
own 20 and the Pats had at least 3 third down situations, maybe 4 I
don't remember, to stop them. They stop them, game is over. Giants
leave with great stats, Brady on his ass most of the game, and Pats
leave with trophy. Did you really feel like the Pats were going to
lose when Brady hit Moss for the touchdown?

TH

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

On Feb 7, 12:25 pm, tgowan wrote:
> On Feb 7, 7:13 am, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
>
> > > Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> > > New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> > > was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> > > a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> > > anything slide.
>
> > > As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> > > tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> > > replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> > > flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> > > instinct to avoid pain.
>
> > > Eddie
>
> > Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> > had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> > No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> > the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> > interception."
>
> > TH
Why didn't he get the ball
> a few yards down field so they could kick a game-tieing filed goal?
> All he had to do was complete one pass to Moss and the game goes to
> OT. Right?

Gee, I wonder if it was hard for the Giants to figure out what the
Pats were going to have to do in those last...what...20 seconds? Wink

TH

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

Most, if not all, NFL QBs can put up
> impressive numbers if they have all day long to throw.

And most, if not all, NFL QBs can look like hell throwing as they are
being hit. Why is this news?

TH

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

PS....

Yes, I'm a lone dissenter. Not one of the "hate the Pats" crowd a bit.
Dolphin fan though and through, but will always pick AFC over NFC,
that's just me....and I admire what the Patriots were able to do this
year. Not a fan of Bellicheck, but I have watched most of the NFL
documentaries on the Pats...." NFL Greatest Game Series" for
instance....and I don't get the impression they are all a bunch of
jerks, as everyone seems to think. Anymore so than any team anyway.

The "Hate the Pats" thing is just another example of what happens in
many fields when anyone grows enormously successful. The bigger they
get, the more they begin to stir up a crowd of dissenters. Look at
the 72 Dolphins, now thought of as "grumpy old men" and their season
continually knocked as "against sub-par competition" as if going 17-0
is a daily occurrence despite the competition, etc. So yes, I was for
the Pats, and yes I think they are the superior team that had a flat
night and completely unimaginative game plan. If they played the
Giants 10 times I think they would win the majority of the times.
Giants made a huge play with that catch that was as much of a miracle
as the catch by the Raiders with Stabler falling down to defeat the
Dolphins in the AFC Playoff game in 74. OTHO, Samuels makes that
interception over 50 per cent of the time.

Manning was incredible, the Giants "D" super. I'm not trying to take
anything away from their road successes or their Super Bowl win, but I
think some balance can't be a bad thing. They really would have lost
the game had NE been able to stop them on their last drive, no matter
how many times they sacked Brady.

TH

tgowan · Joined: 07 Feb 2008 Posts: 8

On Feb 7, 9:40 pm, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
> On Feb 7, 12:25 pm, tgowan wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Feb 7, 7:13 am, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
>
> > > On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
>
> > > > Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> > > > New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> > > > was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> > > > a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> > > > anything slide.
>
> > > > As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> > > > tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> > > > replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> > > > flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> > > > instinct to avoid pain.
>
> > > > Eddie
>
> > > Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> > > had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> > > No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> > > the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> > > interception."
>
> > > TH
>
> > As we discussed earlier, that's a pretty narrow view of what happened
> > in this game. You can point to the final drive and say that's where
> > the game was lost, as if the previous 58 minutes didn't happen. I'm
> > not sure, though, why you don't point to the last 35 seconds where
> > Brady had the ball along with 3 timeouts. Why didn't he get the ball
> > a few yards down field so they could kick a game-tieing filed goal?
> > All he had to do was complete one pass to Moss and the game goes to
> > OT. Right?
>
> > During the regular season the Giants scored an average of 23 points
> > per game on offense. The Patriots gave up an average of 17 points on
> > defense. Pats D held up their end of the bargain. The Pats offense,
> > on the other hand, played like the Dolphins. After averaging 36.8
> > points per game in the regular season, the Patriots offense scored 14
> > points in the biggest game in the NFL since 1972. If the Pats offense
> > only scores half their season average, they win by 1 point. When they
> > had one last shot to win or send the game to OT, they went 4 and out.
> > They couldn't even manage 1 first down. They laid down on that final
> > drive with 35 seconds standing between them and immortality. I guess
> > it was just too hard. So we witnessed the fact that when you aren't
> > up to shaping your own destiny, an alternate destiny is created for
> > you.
>
> > By the way, how much money did you lose on this game?
>
> > Terry Gowan
>
> None Terry. Again, everyone can rave about the Giants D all day, but
> facts are facts, and the Giants final drive started from inside their
> own 20 and the Pats had at least 3 third down situations, maybe 4 I
> don't remember, to stop them. They stop them, game is over. Giants
> leave with great stats, Brady on his ass most of the game, and Pats
> leave with trophy. Did you really feel like the Pats were going to
> lose when Brady hit Moss for the touchdown?
>
> TH- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Did I feel like the Pats would lose? Let's just say that I had high
hopes. It would not have surprised me to see the Pats win the game.
I wanted to see the Pats lose, but wasn't going to be upset if they
won. You keep coming back to what appears to be a sore spot.

The Pats would have won with a defensive stop late in the game, but
it's not the totality of what happened in the game. And there were
plenty of reasons why they were in that position rather than having
the game won by the 4th quarter. Pats would have won had they scored
anywhere near their 36.8 points per game average. The Pats would have
won if the offensive line gave Brady enough protection to get the ball
down field. The Pats would have won if they lived up to their own
billing on offense.

There were two teams on the field for the Super Bowl, the game didn't
just hinge on what the Pats did or didn't do. The Giants scored that
final TD, it wasn't just a case of the Pats letting it happen. The
Giants offense TOOK that TD from New England's defense.

As Dolphins fans we very often bitch about our team losing on the
final drive when the truth is that they played shitty for 4
quarters.

Terry Gowan

tom · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 21

"As Dolphins fans we very often bitch about our team losing on the
final drive when the truth is that they played shitty for 4
quarters. "

That's certainly a perspective to which I can relate, and
unfortunately true;)

I just watched the Perfectville commercial...the final one..on YouTube
for the first time.

Pretty funny stuff, and in the end, I'm glad they are indeed, still
Perfect.

TH

"eüphemism · Joined: 16 Nov 2007 Posts: 9

On Feb 7, 7:13 am, t...@aerovons.com wrote:
> On Feb 7, 6:48 am, Eddie Silver wrote:
>
> > Whoever made the betting line was nuts. The Giants had
> > New England beat the first time they played. Their mistake
> > was letting up on them once they were ahead. However, in
> > a SuperBowl, there was no way the Giants were going to let
> > anything slide.
>
> > As good as Brady is, no quarterback can withstand getting
> > tackled hard on practically every play. Looking at the
> > replay, by the end of the first half, you could see he was
> > flinching before anyone even touched him. It was natural
> > instinct to avoid pain.
>
> > Eddie
>
> Again, The Patriots were leading with UNDER TWO MINUTES to play. They
> had only to hold the Giants on that final drive and couldn't.
>
> No matter how much beating Brady took, the defense in the end, blew
> the game for the Pats, especially Samuels game-ending "non-
> interception."
>
> TH

If you want to "root cause" the loss, why not blame the corner who got
burned on that final Manning-to-Burress TD pass? That was where they
lost the game... when the Giants went ahead for the last time. It was
essentially a blown coverage - maybe the guy slipped - but he lost the
game. I don't even recall his name, but it's been changed to Mudd by
now.

The truth or facts or whatever you want to call it is that the Giants
led often in the game while their defense managed to hold the best
offense in the NFL(?) to a grand total of 14 points. When the Giants
seriously challenged the Patriots in that late, regular season game,
and when they muzzled them in the Super Bowl, it was (in fact) their
defense that provided the opportunity win - but more so in the Super
Bowl.

Yes... the "weakness" of the Patriots was KNOWN to be their defense.
But that's a relative term. Their defense was vulnerable to
surrendering points - enough to allow another team to win IF that
other team could manage to out score the Patriot offense. THAT was
the obvious question. The Giants only scored 17 points. Not exactly
a blow-out score. But it was enough... just enough. Thanks to the
defense that somehow managed to stifle what had been a record setting
offense.

Ü

BAH · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 24

On Fri, 8 Feb 2008 05:01:25 -0800 (PST), "eüphemism"
wrote:

>
>If you want to "root cause" the loss, why not blame the corner who got
>burned on that final Manning-to-Burress TD pass? That was where they
>lost the game... when the Giants went ahead for the last time. It was
>essentially a blown coverage - maybe the guy slipped - but he lost the
>game. I don't even recall his name, but it's been changed to Mudd by
>now.

That was no slip - he got beat, pure and simple. The only reason he
fell is because he got faked out of his jock so badly it was around
his ankles.

>
>The truth or facts or whatever you want to call it is that the Giants
>led often in the game while their defense managed to hold the best
>offense in the NFL(?) to a grand total of 14 points. When the Giants
>seriously challenged the Patriots in that late, regular season game,
>and when they muzzled them in the Super Bowl, it was (in fact) their
>defense that provided the opportunity win - but more so in the Super
>Bowl.

Let's face it - the Patsies offense feasted on some really bad
defenses this year (like the entire AFC East), but struggled against
good, agressive defenses. They had an incredible amount of luck to
beat the Ravens, who were so bad that even the Fins beat them.

>
>Yes... the "weakness" of the Patriots was KNOWN to be their defense.

Their "defense" all season was outscoring the other team.

>But that's a relative term. Their defense was vulnerable to
>surrendering points - enough to allow another team to win IF that
>other team could manage to out score the Patriot offense. THAT was
>the obvious question. The Giants only scored 17 points. Not exactly
>a blow-out score. But it was enough... just enough. Thanks to the
>defense that somehow managed to stifle what had been a record setting
>offense.

Well put.

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