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Will the fans still come to Arrowhead?
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Tarkus



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 1:45 pm    Post subject: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

POINT OF ORDER – Will the fans still come to Arrowhead?
Feb 21, 2008, 5:47:52 AM by Eileen Weir

In recent years we have seen, regretfully, that on critical issues
involving the Chiefs there is too little real debate, often simply
bumper sticker clichés reflecting common assertions that get passed around.

The Kansas City Chiefs have been one of the most popular franchises in
the NFL for the past 20 years. Playing in a small market they have
managed to attract nearly 80,000 fans per game and have had over 70,000
season ticket holders, something only three of the largest market teams
in the league can match. They’ve done that without ever winning a Super
Bowl. But now can support for Chiefs football be on the wane? Has the
air gone out of the Chiefs balloon that helped propel the team to one of
the best home records in the league these past two decades?

This is the fifth in a series of free flowing conversations among our
columnists where this time they will take a look at the future of Chiefs
fan support.

JONATHAN RAND: “There are a couple of ironclad rules when it comes to
fan support. Everybody loves a winner. You don’t build a fan base
overnight. And you don’t lose a fan base overnight.

“Fans buy tickets based on last year’s results more than next year’s
expectations. Virtually any team in pro sports will experience record
season ticket sales the year after winning a championship. And that
success will carry a team for years but not indefinitely. The post-1985
Royals can attest to that.

“The Chiefs haven’t seen peak enthusiasm from fans slip in one season.
And they won’t get it back in one season.”

EILEEN WEIR: “The threat is always out there that ticket holders will
abandon ship if the team fails to succeed, but the truth of the matter
is that a loyal fan base will remain through some pretty tough times. A
look at perennially underperforming teams shows that fans will fill
stadiums on a consistent basis out of love for their team and a desire
to attend a professional sporting event. The Chicago Cubs, Green Bay
Packers, Cleveland Browns, Philadelphia Phillies and others have at
times in their history made losing something to rally around. Their fans
proudly supported a cellar-dweller and wore their steadfastness as a
badge of honor.”

BOB GRETZ: “Given the 4-12 season and the inability or unwillingness of
the franchise to publicly admit that it was in a rebuilding mode, it’s
not unexpected or outrageous to think there are some negative thoughts
floating around.

“This reaction stands out because of the remarkable job the franchise
has done since 1989. Nowhere in a market the size of Kansas City and its
environs will you find an NFL team that has been supported as much, for
as long and did not win a championship. Look at the cities with similar
populations: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, New
Orleans, Nashville and Charlotte. Since 1989, among those cities there
are Super Bowl appearances in Buffalo, Indianapolis, Nashville and
Charlotte. There’s a Super Bowl victory in Indianapolis.

“None of those cities had the sustained fan attention and attendance
that Kansas City and the Chiefs had from 1990 through the 2006 season.
Buffalo went to a number of Super Bowl games, not winning any of them,
and they have so many problems selling out their stadium that they are
now going to play at least one game a year in Toronto. Cincinnati has
problems filling its new stadium these days with the bad football they
are seeing. Indianapolis had trouble selling all their tickets to the
Chiefs-Colts playoff game in ‘06 because fans had grown disenchanted
with the team and its inability to win it all. Jacksonville is covering
up seats in its stadium because it can’t sellout. New Orleans is a
different case due to the tragedy of Katrina. But before the hurricane,
the Saints were having trouble selling tickets. Nashville and Charlotte
always are struggling to sell all their seats because their teams have
played well, but have not delivered.”

RAND: “Most fans understand the Chiefs are rebuilding. But they don’t
want to hear about the labor pains. They want to see the baby before
they start looking for remaining spaces in the stadium and on the
bandwagon.”

RUFUS DAWES: “First and foremost, fans are defined as much by their
arguments as by their agreements, so even when things are going right
there is a part of the fan base that is unhappy or unsatisfied over
something or more likely somebody associated with the team. Over the
selection of a head coach, general manager, draft pick, player use, play
calling, whatever comments of any kind emanating from a team and its
members, fans are divided on. Look, people argue more from instinct than
information and they don’t see that many of a team’s problems are
universal, not just Kansas City-based.”

GRETZ: “What the Chiefs were able to do with the Kansas City community
over the last 15-years plus, was pretty remarkable. Arrowhead became a
feared place to play, not because of the stadium itself, the turf or the
weather. It was the combination of the teams that were put on the field
and the fans that filled the stands and made noise.

“For any of us who were in Arrowhead in the 1970s and 1980s, we know
there is nothing magical about the stadium itself. There was never any
home field advantage then because of crowd noise.”

DAWES: “The great baseball columnist for the Washington Post, Thomas
Boswell wrote that ‘you measure failure not in seasons, but in buildings
crumbled under the weight of defeat, parks that lasted longer than the
lives of men and now are gone.’

“For a large part of its history, nothing of real significance happened
at Arrowhead Stadium. The exploits of the great Chiefs teams that became
the success story of the fledgling American Football League were
conducted in Municipal Stadium, which when torn down and really built to
be a baseball stadium had become the heart and soul of the town’s love
of its professional sports franchise. Success in Arrowhead has really
only come in the past 19 years and not really much of it in the
post-season. So, don’t look at Arrowhead Stadium as the reason for all
the support, but to the fans who have peopled it all these years,
starting with those 26,000 or so who came over from Municipal and stuck
it out through the down years before Peterson and Schottenheimer revived
the franchise.”

GRETZ: “The crowds came again when the franchise showed it could compete
at the highest levels of the NFL. They’ve stayed through the last 17
years because the team continued to show it could compete at the highest
levels, or was not that far away. That changed in 2007 because it became
obvious at mid-season that the Chiefs were not going to be a real
contender. They weren’t even good enough to be a pretender.

“Things are different now. That’s OK. It won’t be like it was before, in
the 1990s. For many fans that was like a ‘first love.’ Everybody
remembers the passion that goes with the first time they fell head over
heals.

“But there’s no question that once the Chiefs show again that they can
compete for a title, the fans interest will return. They may be a bit
reticent at first, and it very definitely will be a Missouri ‘Show Me’
reaction, which is understandable.’

RAND: “Season ticket sales are based largely on supply and demand. If
season tickets are completely sold out and there’s a waiting list, many
fans won’t bail out even after a horrible season because they don’t want
to lose their seats. If season tickets are available, however, people
are less inclined to feel pressured to renew or buy new ones. And some
season ticket holders just sell their tickets each year until they
believe the team is ready to win again.”

WEIR: “Both the Chiefs and the Royals may likely feel the impact of new
entertainment options coming on board in Kansas City. Not long ago,
professional football and baseball were literally the only games in
town. With the addition of the Kansas Speedway, minor league baseball, a
new downtown events arena, the recent success of University of Kansas
and University of Missouri football, and enhanced urban and suburban
shopping and dining destinations, suddenly Kansas Citians have a surplus
of options tugging at them. There was a time when you wouldn’t dream of
doing anything else on a Sunday afternoon but watch or go to the Chiefs
game, partially influenced by the fact that there wasn’t much else to
do. The development of the city scene has changed that.”

RAND: “In an era of steep ticket prices, fans in all pro sports expect
more from their teams than they once did before they make a financial
commitment. It’s easier to say no when folks in the office, at the youth
baseball field or at the neighborhood barbecue aren’t as impressed as
they once were when you regale them about the previous Sunday’s victory
at Arrowhead and about what good seats you have.”

GRETZ: “Sports fans of the Midwest are supportive, but they talk with
their wallets. They want their teams to do well. They will support them
totally if they feel they have a chance to win. But they will not spend
money if they don’t feel like they are going to be entertained or have a
chance to win.”

RAND: “In an era of steep ticket prices, fans in any sport expect – no
they DEMAND – a first-class facility, a winning team and at least a few
all-stars. Lose any of these elements and fan support will suffer. The
Chiefs will have the first-class facility as soon as Arrowhead
renovations are finished and they have such stars as tight end Tony
Gonzalez, defensive end Jared Allen, running back Larry Johnson and
guard Brian Waters. But they have lost the winning shine and that
obviously is costly.

“Having said all this, Chiefs’ support at a low point still beats the
heck out of what most pro sports franchises enjoy at their highest level
of support. The Chiefs still sold all their tickets last season…”

DAWES: “History tells us that the environment has changed. A long time
ago, owners of professional teams, particularly baseball, argued that
the game relieved the monotony and tedium of employment in an industrial
society and made for worthwhile use of leisure time, away from bars and
street corners. The sports teams and leagues were as much an invention
of industrial American as they were an antidote to it.

“In time, the games – first baseball and then football – became
culturally significant. They assisted in creating something akin to mass
democracy, eventually bringing social classes together and popularized
some working-class characteristics like teamwork and toughness. .The
creation of a suite culture has tempered that some, but not to the
extent that’s been reported. Sport brings people together, not tears
them apart.

“But the days of teams drawing most of the money directly from a
committed group of patrons have vanished. Thanks to television, the
games can now be displayed to enormous audiences. Most of these people
are not fans in the old sense but instead value sport as an occasional
diversion and only indirectly pay for the costs of individual teams.”

WEIR: “Other professional sports towns suffer from this reality. People
who live in Southern California have better things to do on Sundays than
sit in a stadium to watch a football game, even a great football game.
The Super Bowl celebration at Giants Stadium drew only 20,000 people,
only about 25% of the facility’s capacity. The multitude of
entertainment options that exist in these areas draws away from
attendance. It is a lot easier to sell out a game in Green Bay. What
else is there to do?”

RAND: “Having seen the ups and downs of teams over the years, I’m seldom
surprised by the ebb and flow of fan support. The only thing that
startles me is to see thousands of season tickets unused, especially on
a fairly warm and sunny December afternoon. Call me old fashioned, but I
could never see myself burning about $200 I’ve already invested in two
season tickets plus parking.”

GRETZ: “Essentially it comes down to this: the Chiefs are the only hope
the sports fan of the Kansas City area has of winning a championship in
professional sports. The economic platform of major league baseball
right now does not allow the Royals to be a championship contender.”

DAWES: “What we must recognize is that in today’s media marketplace,
it’s like historian Victor Davis Hanson has said, ‘it is defeat that has
a thousand fathers, while the notion of victory is an orphan.’ Today’s
media make situations worse, which I know opens me up to criticism of
the don’t-blame-the-messenger type. But the fact remains that media see
the world as one big polarized place. What the press doesn’t realize is
that the public unhappiness or anger that they are constantly
referencing doesn’t really extend down very far into the fan base. It
fades pretty quickly as you get away from the media. A lot of what they
characterize as substantial unrest or as upheaval turns out to be little
more than a storm in a teacup that in time passes.

“Team success goes in cycles and the Chiefs are in one right now that is
not agreeable to anyone. But, as we have seen here and elsewhere, that
can change.”

The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of
the Kansas City Chiefs.

A native of Binghamton, NY, with a B.A. in English Literature, Eileen
Weir once served as manager of public information and media services for
the Chiefs from 1992-2000. She currently is a society columnist for The
Examiner.

--
"We've got to score touchdowns. Period." - Herm Edwards

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Nunya Bidnits



Joined: 26 Dec 2007
Posts: 17

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:16 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"Tarkus" wrote in message@atlantabraves.net...
> POINT OF ORDER – Will the fans still come to Arrowhead?
> Feb 21, 2008, 5:47:52 AM by Eileen Weir
>
> In recent years we have seen, regretfully, that on critical issues
> involving the Chiefs there is too little real debate, often simply
> bumper sticker clichés reflecting common assertions that get passed
around.
>
> The Kansas City Chiefs have been one of the most popular franchises in
> the NFL for the past 20 years. Playing in a small market they have
> managed to attract nearly 80,000 fans per game and have had over 70,000
> season ticket holders, something only three of the largest market teams
> in the league can match. They’ve done that without ever winning a Super
> Bowl. But now can support for Chiefs football be on the wane? Has the
> air gone out of the Chiefs balloon that helped propel the team to one of
> the best home records in the league these past two decades?
>
> This is the fifth in a series of free flowing conversations among our
> columnists where this time they will take a look at the future of Chiefs
> fan support.
>
> JONATHAN RAND: “There are a couple of ironclad rules when it comes to
> fan support. Everybody loves a winner. You don’t build a fan base
> overnight. And you don’t lose a fan base overnight.
>
> “Fans buy tickets based on last year’s results more than next year’s
> expectations. Virtually any team in pro sports will experience record
> season ticket sales the year after winning a championship. And that
> success will carry a team for years but not indefinitely. The post-1985
> Royals can attest to that.
>
> “The Chiefs haven’t seen peak enthusiasm from fans slip in one season.
> And they won’t get it back in one season.”
>
> EILEEN WEIR: “The threat is always out there that ticket holders will
> abandon ship if the team fails to succeed, but the truth of the matter
> is that a loyal fan base will remain through some pretty tough times. A
> look at perennially underperforming teams shows that fans will fill
> stadiums on a consistent basis out of love for their team and a desire
> to attend a professional sporting event. The Chicago Cubs, Green Bay
> Packers, Cleveland Browns, Philadelphia Phillies and others have at
> times in their history made losing something to rally around. Their fans
> proudly supported a cellar-dweller and wore their steadfastness as a
> badge of honor.”
>
> BOB GRETZ: “Given the 4-12 season and the inability or unwillingness of
> the franchise to publicly admit that it was in a rebuilding mode, it’s
> not unexpected or outrageous to think there are some negative thoughts
> floating around.
>
> “This reaction stands out because of the remarkable job the franchise
> has done since 1989. Nowhere in a market the size of Kansas City and its
> environs will you find an NFL team that has been supported as much, for
> as long and did not win a championship. Look at the cities with similar
> populations: Buffalo, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Jacksonville, New
> Orleans, Nashville and Charlotte. Since 1989, among those cities there
> are Super Bowl appearances in Buffalo, Indianapolis, Nashville and
> Charlotte. There’s a Super Bowl victory in Indianapolis.
>
> “None of those cities had the sustained fan attention and attendance
> that Kansas City and the Chiefs had from 1990 through the 2006 season.
> Buffalo went to a number of Super Bowl games, not winning any of them,
> and they have so many problems selling out their stadium that they are
> now going to play at least one game a year in Toronto. Cincinnati has
> problems filling its new stadium these days with the bad football they
> are seeing. Indianapolis had trouble selling all their tickets to the
> Chiefs-Colts playoff game in ‘06 because fans had grown disenchanted
> with the team and its inability to win it all. Jacksonville is covering
> up seats in its stadium because it can’t sellout. New Orleans is a
> different case due to the tragedy of Katrina. But before the hurricane,
> the Saints were having trouble selling tickets. Nashville and Charlotte
> always are struggling to sell all their seats because their teams have
> played well, but have not delivered.”
>
> RAND: “Most fans understand the Chiefs are rebuilding. But they don’t
> want to hear about the labor pains. They want to see the baby before
> they start looking for remaining spaces in the stadium and on the
> bandwagon.”
>
> RUFUS DAWES: “First and foremost, fans are defined as much by their
> arguments as by their agreements, so even when things are going right
> there is a part of the fan base that is unhappy or unsatisfied over
> something or more likely somebody associated with the team. Over the
> selection of a head coach, general manager, draft pick, player use, play
> calling, whatever comments of any kind emanating from a team and its
> members, fans are divided on. Look, people argue more from instinct than
> information and they don’t see that many of a team’s problems are
> universal, not just Kansas City-based.”
>
> GRETZ: “What the Chiefs were able to do with the Kansas City community
> over the last 15-years plus, was pretty remarkable. Arrowhead became a
> feared place to play, not because of the stadium itself, the turf or the
> weather. It was the combination of the teams that were put on the field
> and the fans that filled the stands and made noise.
>
> “For any of us who were in Arrowhead in the 1970s and 1980s, we know
> there is nothing magical about the stadium itself. There was never any
> home field advantage then because of crowd noise.”
>
> DAWES: “The great baseball columnist for the Washington Post, Thomas
> Boswell wrote that ‘you measure failure not in seasons, but in buildings
> crumbled under the weight of defeat, parks that lasted longer than the
> lives of men and now are gone.’
>
> “For a large part of its history, nothing of real significance happened
> at Arrowhead Stadium. The exploits of the great Chiefs teams that became
> the success story of the fledgling American Football League were
> conducted in Municipal Stadium, which when torn down and really built to
> be a baseball stadium had become the heart and soul of the town’s love
> of its professional sports franchise. Success in Arrowhead has really
> only come in the past 19 years and not really much of it in the
> post-season. So, don’t look at Arrowhead Stadium as the reason for all
> the support, but to the fans who have peopled it all these years,
> starting with those 26,000 or so who came over from Municipal and stuck
> it out through the down years before Peterson and Schottenheimer revived
> the franchise.”
>
> GRETZ: “The crowds came again when the franchise showed it could compete
> at the highest levels of the NFL. They’ve stayed through the last 17
> years because the team continued to show it could compete at the highest
> levels, or was not that far away. That changed in 2007 because it became
> obvious at mid-season that the Chiefs were not going to be a real
> contender. They weren’t even good enough to be a pretender.
>
> “Things are different now. That’s OK. It won’t be like it was before, in
> the 1990s. For many fans that was like a ‘first love.’ Everybody
> remembers the passion that goes with the first time they fell head over
> heals.
>
> “But there’s no question that once the Chiefs show again that they can
> compete for a title, the fans interest will return. They may be a bit
> reticent at first, and it very definitely will be a Missouri ‘Show Me’
> reaction, which is understandable.’
>
> RAND: “Season ticket sales are based largely on supply and demand. If
> season tickets are completely sold out and there’s a waiting list, many
> fans won’t bail out even after a horrible season because they don’t want
> to lose their seats. If season tickets are available, however, people
> are less inclined to feel pressured to renew or buy new ones. And some
> season ticket holders just sell their tickets each year until they
> believe the team is ready to win again.”
>
> WEIR: “Both the Chiefs and the Royals may likely feel the impact of new
> entertainment options coming on board in Kansas City. Not long ago,
> professional football and baseball were literally the only games in
> town. With the addition of the Kansas Speedway, minor league baseball, a
> new downtown events arena, the recent success of University of Kansas
> and University of Missouri football, and enhanced urban and suburban
> shopping and dining destinations, suddenly Kansas Citians have a surplus
> of options tugging at them. There was a time when you wouldn’t dream of
> doing anything else on a Sunday afternoon but watch or go to the Chiefs
> game, partially influenced by the fact that there wasn’t much else to
> do. The development of the city scene has changed that.”
>
> RAND: “In an era of steep ticket prices, fans in all pro sports expect
> more from their teams than they once did before they make a financial
> commitment. It’s easier to say no when folks in the office, at the youth
> baseball field or at the neighborhood barbecue aren’t as impressed as
> they once were when you regale them about the previous Sunday’s victory
> at Arrowhead and about what good seats you have.”
>
> GRETZ: “Sports fans of the Midwest are supportive, but they talk with
> their wallets. They want their teams to do well. They will support them
> totally if they feel they have a chance to win. But they will not spend
> money if they don’t feel like they are going to be entertained or have a
> chance to win.”
>
> RAND: “In an era of steep ticket prices, fans in any sport expect – no
> they DEMAND – a first-class facility, a winning team and at least a few
> all-stars. Lose any of these elements and fan support will suffer. The
> Chiefs will have the first-class facility as soon as Arrowhead
> renovations are finished and they have such stars as tight end Tony
> Gonzalez, defensive end Jared Allen, running back Larry Johnson and
> guard Brian Waters. But they have lost the winning shine and that
> obviously is costly.
>
> “Having said all this, Chiefs’ support at a low point still beats the
> heck out of what most pro sports franchises enjoy at their highest level
> of support. The Chiefs still sold all their tickets last season…”
>
> DAWES: “History tells us that the environment has changed. A long time
> ago, owners of professional teams, particularly baseball, argued that
> the game relieved the monotony and tedium of employment in an industrial
> society and made for worthwhile use of leisure time, away from bars and
> street corners. The sports teams and leagues were as much an invention
> of industrial American as they were an antidote to it.
>
> “In time, the games – first baseball and then football – became
> culturally significant. They assisted in creating something akin to mass
> democracy, eventually bringing social classes together and popularized
> some working-class characteristics like teamwork and toughness. .The
> creation of a suite culture has tempered that some, but not to the
> extent that’s been reported. Sport brings people together, not tears
> them apart.
>
> “But the days of teams drawing most of the money directly from a
> committed group of patrons have vanished. Thanks to television, the
> games can now be displayed to enormous audiences. Most of these people
> are not fans in the old sense but instead value sport as an occasional
> diversion and only indirectly pay for the costs of individual teams.”
>
> WEIR: “Other professional sports towns suffer from this reality. People
> who live in Southern California have better things to do on Sundays than
> sit in a stadium to watch a football game, even a great football game.
> The Super Bowl celebration at Giants Stadium drew only 20,000 people,
> only about 25% of the facility’s capacity. The multitude of
> entertainment options that exist in these areas draws away from
> attendance. It is a lot easier to sell out a game in Green Bay. What
> else is there to do?”
>
> RAND: “Having seen the ups and downs of teams over the years, I’m seldom
> surprised by the ebb and flow of fan support. The only thing that
> startles me is to see thousands of season tickets unused, especially on
> a fairly warm and sunny December afternoon. Call me old fashioned, but I
> could never see myself burning about $200 I’ve already invested in two
> season tickets plus parking.”
>
> GRETZ: “Essentially it comes down to this: the Chiefs are the only hope
> the sports fan of the Kansas City area has of winning a championship in
> professional sports. The economic platform of major league baseball
> right now does not allow the Royals to be a championship contender.”
>
> DAWES: “What we must recognize is that in today’s media marketplace,
> it’s like historian Victor Davis Hanson has said, ‘it is defeat that has
> a thousand fathers, while the notion of victory is an orphan.’ Today’s
> media make situations worse, which I know opens me up to criticism of
> the don’t-blame-the-messenger type. But the fact remains that media see
> the world as one big polarized place. What the press doesn’t realize is
> that the public unhappiness or anger that they are constantly
> referencing doesn’t really extend down very far into the fan base. It
> fades pretty quickly as you get away from the media. A lot of what they
> characterize as substantial unrest or as upheaval turns out to be little
> more than a storm in a teacup that in time passes.
>
> “Team success goes in cycles and the Chiefs are in one right now that is
> not agreeable to anyone. But, as we have seen here and elsewhere, that
> can change.”
>
> The opinions offered in this column do not necessarily reflect those of
> the Kansas City Chiefs.
>
> A native of Binghamton, NY, with a B.A. in English Literature, Eileen
> Weir once served as manager of public information and media services for
> the Chiefs from 1992-2000. She currently is a society columnist for The
> Examiner.
>
> --
> "We've got to score touchdowns. Period." - Herm Edwards


Simple economics seems to be lost on some of the teams which have problems
filling their stadiums (which may well include Arrowhead for the foreseeable
future unless some things improve PDQ). Lowering prices a little, or even
just not raising them for once, can always make a difference.

Lets say a given fictional stadium can, on average, fill 80% of 10,000
seats at 10 bucks a ticket, or 100% of 10,000 seats at 8 bucks a ticket.
(Hypothetical numbers of course, but the theory is realistic.) Either way
they cannot possibly take in more than $80,000. With that being equal, is it
better for the stadium to be 80% full, or 100% full? Considering blackout
rules, parking income and concession revenues, not to mention the effect of
a full house on the home field advantage, the answer seems obvious. And then
there is the less calculable value that more people in a more varied income
class will be able to afford to attend the games.

I suppose this sort of practical math and elementary economics is impossible
in today's NFL. But personally, when I hear people bitch that some team or
other cannot fill their stadium, while it costs damn near 500 bucks to take
the family to the game, I have no sympathy for the gatekeepers whatsoever.

MartyB in KC
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Tarkus



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> Simple economics seems to be lost on some of the teams which have problems
> filling their stadiums (which may well include Arrowhead for the foreseeable
> future unless some things improve PDQ). Lowering prices a little, or even
> just not raising them for once, can always make a difference.
>
> Lets say a given fictional stadium can, on average, fill 80% of 10,000
> seats at 10 bucks a ticket, or 100% of 10,000 seats at 8 bucks a ticket.
> (Hypothetical numbers of course, but the theory is realistic.) Either way
> they cannot possibly take in more than $80,000. With that being equal, is it
> better for the stadium to be 80% full, or 100% full? Considering blackout
> rules, parking income and concession revenues, not to mention the effect of
> a full house on the home field advantage, the answer seems obvious. And then
> there is the less calculable value that more people in a more varied income
> class will be able to afford to attend the games.
>
> I suppose this sort of practical math and elementary economics is impossible
> in today's NFL. But personally, when I hear people bitch that some team or
> other cannot fill their stadium, while it costs damn near 500 bucks to take
> the family to the game, I have no sympathy for the gatekeepers whatsoever.

I think most are smart enough businessmen to understand this, but it's a
balancing act trying to find the right price to bring in the most
revenue. 80% full might be more profitable than 100% full, depending on
how low you have to go get that other 20% into your stadium. Reducing
prices by 20% does not necessarily increase demand by 20%.

BTW, didn't the Chiefs lower prices for the cheap seats next year,
offset by raising prices on the better seats?

--
"I know. You're 7-Eleven. You're always open. You'll get the ball.
Relax. There's some other guys we've got to get the ball to, too."
- Herm Edwards on Dwayne Bowe's enthusiasm for wanting the ball
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RDOGuy



Joined: 06 Aug 2007
Posts: 10

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:04 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

> > Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> > I suppose this sort of practical math and elementary economics is impossible
> > in today's NFL. But personally, when I hear people bitch that some team or
> > other cannot fill their stadium, while it costs damn near 500 bucks to take
> > the family to the game, I have no sympathy for the gatekeepers whatsoever.

You have to remember that an NFL team has only ten chances to sell
tickets each season. Specifically in Kansas City's case, that means
that the stadium's infrastructure has to be supported for a whole year
based on what they take in on ten Sundays - there's no baseball team
providing revenue for the stadium when the NFL team is idle. It's
true that in the case of Arrowhead, the Wizards and the occasional Big
12 game also contribute - and the single use stadium concept is
becoming more and more common throughout the league - but the Chiefs
still have to shoulder most of the load. Considering this, it's
amazing to me that tickets don't cost more than they already do!

But you're right, Marty - attending an NFL game is very expensive.

On Feb 21, 11:43 am, Tarkus wrote:
> BTW, didn't the Chiefs lower prices for the cheap seats next year,
> offset by raising prices on the better seats?

Yes... that's right. I'd bet that the pricing structure was
calculated to be revenue-neutral for 2008. I think it was mostly a PR
move. If they had increased the ticket price across the board, they
would have been crucified in the media. Even as it was, the media
jumped all over them for positioning it as they did.
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Tarkus



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Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 3:19 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

RDOGuy wrote:
> On Feb 21, 11:43 am, Tarkus wrote:
>> BTW, didn't the Chiefs lower prices for the cheap seats next year,
>> offset by raising prices on the better seats?
>
> Yes... that's right. I'd bet that the pricing structure was
> calculated to be revenue-neutral for 2008. I think it was mostly a PR
> move. If they had increased the ticket price across the board, they
> would have been crucified in the media. Even as it was, the media
> jumped all over them for positioning it as they did.

Despite that, I think it was a smart move on their part. Those in the
expensive seats are going to be a lot easier to keep than those in the
cheap seats. One, they can afford it, and two, they don't want to lose
prime seats for when the Chiefs get good again. This strategy allows
the Chiefs the best chance to keep Arrowhead full (or at least sold out)
without losing revenue.

Now if the Chiefs turn things around, they can keep the expensive seats
the same (or even raise them again), and raise the cheap seats to meet
the increased demand. So smart move all around.

--
"We've got to score touchdowns. Period." - Herm Edwards
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Nunya Bidnits



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:53 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"Tarkus" wrote
> Reducing
> prices by 20% does not necessarily increase demand by 20%.

And I never said it did. I did try to make it clear that it was a
hypothetical simplified illustration for the purposes of making a point.

Its true that lower prices will improve sales for just about anything. That
is the operating principle, and I am obviously not claiming to know some
numerically specific inverse percentage calculation that will fill stadiums.
What is necessarily true is that, all other things being equal, there will
be more sales of the same product at a lower price than a higher one. Does
that explain it better?

> BTW, didn't the Chiefs lower prices for the cheap seats next year,
> offset by raising prices on the better seats?

I don't know. But its possible that such an approach would send sales of the
two different classes of seats in two different directions. Regardless I
think its a good move to make more seats accessible to more of the people
who may have been pushed out of the opportunity to support their team in
person by excessively high prices. But its still robbing Peter to pay Paul
since the obvious object is not to lower total ticket revenue. They are just
redistributing the same total cost. Now it really doesn't really matter, as
long as they can fill the stadium that way. But if they can't, they will
have to rethink the wisdom of that theory.

MartyB in KC
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Nunya Bidnits



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 5:57 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"RDOGuy" wrote in message@41g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> > > Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> > > I suppose this sort of practical math and elementary economics is
impossible
> > > in today's NFL. But personally, when I hear people bitch that some
team or
> > > other cannot fill their stadium, while it costs damn near 500 bucks to
take
> > > the family to the game, I have no sympathy for the gatekeepers
whatsoever.
>
> You have to remember that an NFL team has only ten chances to sell
> tickets each season. Specifically in Kansas City's case, that means
> that the stadium's infrastructure has to be supported for a whole year
> based on what they take in on ten Sundays - there's no baseball team
> providing revenue for the stadium when the NFL team is idle. It's
> true that in the case of Arrowhead, the Wizards and the occasional Big
> 12 game also contribute - and the single use stadium concept is
> becoming more and more common throughout the league - but the Chiefs
> still have to shoulder most of the load. Considering this, it's
> amazing to me that tickets don't cost more than they already do!
>
Just remember one thing.... it still comes down to how many tickets they can
sell, no matter what the infrastructure cost. You can build a fantastic
space age facility with every convenience known to mankind, so expensive
that it would cost $2500 at ticket over X number of events to meet the cost,
and therefore that might be the minimum price to attend an event in that
facility. Chances are they would never come remotely close to meeting their
costs because there's no way they would ever fill the facility. My point was
that if they can't fill any given stadium at a particular price they may be
able to fill it at a lower price. Then, in the long run, they will take in
more money because there are more people present to spend it. The
infrastructure cost is what it is, to be sure, a relatively fixed cost, but
if a facility can't sell enough tickets to meet their nut, they still may be
able to make more money in some cases by selling more tickets at a somewhat
lower price, bringing them perhaps closer to the fixed costs they want to
cover.

Remember also that Arrowhead's fixed costs are not only covered by the
Chiefs, but by other events throughout the year as well. However my points
are not about Arrowhead alone, and actually are aimed mainly at the writers'
comments in the originating article in this thread regarding stadiums and
clubs that say they are having trouble filling the house. I think their
problem is not that the economics are more complicated than I perceive, but
rather that they do not want to lose face by effectively admitting that they
have to lower their prices to fill the seats with supporters. In other
words, resistance to such changes are as much driven by PR concerns as they
are by hopeful marketing.

MartyB in KC
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Tarkus



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Posts: 75

PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 4:08 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> "Tarkus" wrote
>> Reducing
>> prices by 20% does not necessarily increase demand by 20%.
>
> And I never said it did. I did try to make it clear that it was a
> hypothetical simplified illustration for the purposes of making a point.
>
> Its true that lower prices will improve sales for just about anything. That
> is the operating principle, and I am obviously not claiming to know some
> numerically specific inverse percentage calculation that will fill stadiums.
> What is necessarily true is that, all other things being equal, there will
> be more sales of the same product at a lower price than a higher one.

Of course. The question is where the line of diminishing returns is.
And that's what every team has to grapple with. If the object is to
maximize profit, lowering prices to increase sales may not necessarily
be the way to go.

Of course, you also have to factor in goodwill, establishing a large and
loyal fan base, etc. So decreased profits in the short term may be a
good long term strategy. A lot of minor league teams operate that way,
taking financial hits in the short term, in the hopes of long term success.

Of course, NFL owners are aware of all of this. They didn't just fall
off the turnip truck and end up owning a team. That's my point. There
are a lot of variables involved. If the key to success was as simple as
lowering ticket prices, virtually everyone would be doing it.

--
"I know. You're 7-Eleven. You're always open. You'll get the ball.
Relax. There's some other guys we've got to get the ball to, too."
- Herm Edwards on Dwayne Bowe's enthusiasm for wanting the ball
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Nunya Bidnits



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:33 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"Tarkus" wrote

> Of course, NFL owners are aware of all of this. They didn't just fall
> off the turnip truck and end up owning a team. That's my point. There
> are a lot of variables involved. If the key to success was as simple as
> lowering ticket prices, virtually everyone would be doing it.
>

I just don't believe that last sentence is necessarily true.

So, its a forgone conclusion that they will always utilize the most direct,
effective, practical approach available? The reason we won't agree on this
one is that I do not have that same faith as you. I think they let
intangibles such as public image color such decisions, therefore they may
not always make the most effective cause and effect decisions, and may
indeed be willing to accept a certain degree of financial loss or cost in
exchange for a certain degree of protection of public image. Like you said,
its not that simple, but I imagine different complexities than you, perhaps
because of my marketing experience.

The math is complex, yes, but when it comes to money, its all divided
according to predictable pre-agreed formulas of one sort or another,
depending on who is taking in the money and for what, and through proven
research techniques they can predict fairly accurately what effect various
price changes will have on both attendance and total game revenues. So no,
they didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but I think more than math
enters into it when a franchise considers whether to lower ticket prices,
sometimes in such a way as to just maintain current revenues, or accept some
reduction current income, even where it might be possible to increase it
overall. You may believe something different. So be it.

MartyB in KC
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Tarkus



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 9:05 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> "Tarkus" wrote
>
>> Of course, NFL owners are aware of all of this. They didn't just fall
>> off the turnip truck and end up owning a team. That's my point. There
>> are a lot of variables involved. If the key to success was as simple as
>> lowering ticket prices, virtually everyone would be doing it.
>
> I just don't believe that last sentence is necessarily true.

Maybe I overstated it, but certainly some would be doing it, and when
proven successful the copycats would follow, as they do on other issues.

> So, its a forgone conclusion that they will always utilize the most direct,
> effective, practical approach available? The reason we won't agree on this
> one is that I do not have that same faith as you. I think they let
> intangibles such as public image color such decisions, therefore they may
> not always make the most effective cause and effect decisions, and may
> indeed be willing to accept a certain degree of financial loss or cost in
> exchange for a certain degree of protection of public image. Like you said,
> its not that simple, but I imagine different complexities than you, perhaps
> because of my marketing experience.
>
> The math is complex, yes, but when it comes to money, its all divided
> according to predictable pre-agreed formulas of one sort or another,
> depending on who is taking in the money and for what, and through proven
> research techniques they can predict fairly accurately what effect various
> price changes will have on both attendance and total game revenues. So no,
> they didn't just fall off the turnip truck, but I think more than math
> enters into it when a franchise considers whether to lower ticket prices,
> sometimes in such a way as to just maintain current revenues, or accept some
> reduction current income, even where it might be possible to increase it
> overall. You may believe something different. So be it.

I just find it hard to believe that NFL owners in general would
knowingly render policies that lead to empty seats AND less money in
their pockets. Maybe a nutjob here and there would do so, but beyond
that, I don't think so.

You talk about public image, but what greater public image is there than
selling out your stadium every week? The Chiefs are proof of that. And
so is Carl Peterson's long tenure.

--
"We've got to score touchdowns. Period." - Herm Edwards
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Tarkus



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 10:56 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> Again, if you read my comments you will see they weren't about the Chiefs.
> As I said a couple of times, they were about the comments made by the
> writers in your original post here regarding complaints from various teams
> about how they could not sell out their stadiums. The public image point I
> made was that some of those teams experiencing may not wish to tarnish their
> public image by lowering prices, even if it did sell more seats and
> effectively increase total game revenues.

I guess I just don't get it. I don't see how lowering prices,
particularly if it fills the seats, would tarnish a team's image. In
fact, I would think the opposite would occur. They would be praised and
held up as a model for others to follow.

--
"Would I like to have an offense that scores 30 points a game?
I sure would. I would love it." - Herm Edwards
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RDOGuy



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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:48 pm    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

Just to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion... Smile

As things now stand, whether or not a stadium has 60,000 fans or
80,000 fans in it for every game has comparatively litte relevance -
EXCEPT with regard to local TV blackouts. Do the math. Admission,
parking and concessions probably amount to... say... $125 a patron.
For 20,000 fans who don't show up, that's $2.5 million in lost revenue
for each game - $25 million in a season.

Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Yet it's only a small fraction of what
an NFL team takes in from their share of TV revenues. I submit that
the hunger for sellout crowds has a LOT more to do with keeping the
fans who DON'T go to the games connected with the team. After all...
if the games are blacked out, they can't watch half of them!
Remember... even though the Chiefs run a lot of commercials hawking
tickets when a game might not sell out, it is usually local TV
advertisers like Price Chopper who step in and buy the remaining
tickets to assure a sellout.

In my view, all of this angst about whether or not the Chiefs will
sell out next year after last season's 4-12 record is because
newspaper columnists and talk show hosts are trying to come up with
the final piece of evidence that Carl Peterson is Beelzebub. When
it's pointed out that Peterson's "five year plan" (which never existed
in the first place) didn't bring a Super Bowl victory to the Chiefs,
the defense is, "Well, but the franchise has been financially
successful during Peterson's tenure. That's really his job." So now,
these guys can smell blood, and they're aching for a chance to point
at empty seats in Arrowhead to justify their hatred of Peterson.

But you know what? Even if Arrowhead is 25% empty next season, the
Chiefs will continue to make money.
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Nunya Bidnits



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:11 am    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"Tarkus" wrote in message@corp.supernews.com...
> Nunya Bidnits wrote:
> > Again, if you read my comments you will see they weren't about the
Chiefs.
> > As I said a couple of times, they were about the comments made by the
> > writers in your original post here regarding complaints from various
teams
> > about how they could not sell out their stadiums. The public image point
I
> > made was that some of those teams experiencing may not wish to tarnish
their
> > public image by lowering prices, even if it did sell more seats and
> > effectively increase total game revenues.
>
> I guess I just don't get it. I don't see how lowering prices,
> particularly if it fills the seats, would tarnish a team's image. In
> fact, I would think the opposite would occur. They would be praised and
> held up as a model for others to follow.
>
I understand your point of view and it makes sense. However you obviously
haven't spent much time around PR types. They may well counsel management
that to do so is a sign of weakness. It runs counter to their primal urge to
increase the price of everything. When you think about it, prices go down,
usually, for one of two reasons: Either mass production has caused
manufacturing and distribution costs to drop on a per sale basis, OR they
can't get rid of the damn things so they drop the price of whatever it is
until they practically give them away just to get them off the shelves.

If you think about it, nobody in their right mind is going to lower prices
IF they are filling 100% of their seats, correct? So I don't think consumers
would be fooled into thinking it was a heroic move on their team's part to
lower prices, if the previous news had been about how the team couldn't sell
enough tickets to meet their nut. Consumers are pretty smart these days, and
while they might hail lower ticket prices with cheers and gratitude, if it
came to pass, don't expect them to believe that the price went down in the
interests of spreading peace, love, and brotherhood.

There is an inherent resistance in business to lowering prices for one
simple reason. Its easier to lower them than it is to raise them.

Like you said, there are many complexities.

MartyB in KC
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Nunya Bidnits



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 2:21 am    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

"RDOGuy" wrote in message@o77g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
> Just to throw a monkey wrench into this discussion... Smile
>
> As things now stand, whether or not a stadium has 60,000 fans or
> 80,000 fans in it for every game has comparatively litte relevance -
> EXCEPT with regard to local TV blackouts. Do the math. Admission,
> parking and concessions probably amount to... say... $125 a patron.
> For 20,000 fans who don't show up, that's $2.5 million in lost revenue
> for each game - $25 million in a season.
>
> Sounds like a lot, doesn't it? Yet it's only a small fraction of what
> an NFL team takes in from their share of TV revenues. I submit that
> the hunger for sellout crowds has a LOT more to do with keeping the
> fans who DON'T go to the games connected with the team. After all...
> if the games are blacked out, they can't watch half of them!
> Remember... even though the Chiefs run a lot of commercials hawking
> tickets when a game might not sell out, it is usually local TV
> advertisers like Price Chopper who step in and buy the remaining
> tickets to assure a sellout.

Agreed. As before, its very complex. But nevertheless, per the article
posted which started this thread, there are teams in the NFL who aren't
always successful in filling their stadiums, and the information you share
serves to prove even more convincingly the importance of filling those
seats.
>
> In my view, all of this angst about whether or not the Chiefs will
> sell out next year after last season's 4-12 record is because
> newspaper columnists and talk show hosts are trying to come up with
> the final piece of evidence that Carl Peterson is Beelzebub. When
> it's pointed out that Peterson's "five year plan" (which never existed
> in the first place) didn't bring a Super Bowl victory to the Chiefs,
> the defense is, "Well, but the franchise has been financially
> successful during Peterson's tenure. That's really his job." So now,
> these guys can smell blood, and they're aching for a chance to point
> at empty seats in Arrowhead to justify their hatred of Peterson.

I thought he was Beelzebub! Wasn't Schottenheimer his buddy in hell, and
Saddam....... oops, I think I have this confused with an episode of South
Park.

> But you know what? Even if Arrowhead is 25% empty next season, the
> Chiefs will continue to make money.

True. But if as you said, the TV revenues are so important, and realizing
that those revenues are of necessity driven by advertising in the long run,
eventually those blacked out games are going to be costly. I can't see the
Chiefs letting that happen, and I can't see why any other team in the NFL
would be letting it happen either. The Chiefs have a little more insulation
than most NFL team markets because their presence is larger geographically.
The smaller the geographic market of an NFL team, the more damage is done to
revenues relative to the total market.

MartyB in KC
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RDOGuy



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PostPosted: Fri Feb 22, 2008 10:13 am    Post subject: Re: Will the fans still come to Arrowhead? Reply with quote

On Feb 21, 10:25 pm, "TimT" wrote:

> So Dear Media People: You are paid NOT to be fans. You are expected to be
> objective in the press box. Win or lose you do your job and report on the
> game. You will still park close, be warm & comfy, eat, drink and be merry
> with the waitresses. You are paid to do what we pay big bucks to do. You do
> not understand what it means to be a fan because you are not a fan! You are
> media! Quit writing about stuff you don't understand! Go write about stuff
> we can't know about because we're busy working to pay to go to the game!

Tim, I think you are making a very good point: the folks in the media
are, in general, pretty disconnected from what it's like to be a real
Chiefs fan at Arrowhead. But just for the sake of accuracy... there
is no booze in the press box, and there are no waitresses, either.

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