dvd's or tapes

Stan-Fan · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Since the VCR and Camcorder really didn't come into existence until
about 1984, as an affordable household electronic gadget, I doubt if you
are going to find any old NFL, AFL games on tape. Really, NFL films
probably would be about the only place to come up with complete games.

You can get all the Super Bowls, those were, of course taped. Until
1962, all of the Tonight Show episodes starring Johnny Carson, were done
on regular television tape, which was very expensive - so they taped
over it - losing all those shows going back to the Steve Allen, Jack
Paar, early Carson days.

You can, as you wrote, get snippits of title games with Namath against
the Raiders, the old Bills mid-60's powerhouse teams, those run-and-gun
Chargers with Lance Alworth, Keith Lincoln and Paul Lowe, etc., but not
tapes.

If you really want to locate something from television on tape, check
with the School of Television Broadcasting at Vanderbilt University in
Nashville, Tennessee. They maintain a library of everything ever shown
on television on tape of some type, but still don't know if you will get
those early 60's games.

Also, write your various team offices, some have History Of........video
which will include old games and video copied over for resale. Yea,
would be nice to order up a Joe Willie Namath tape against say, the
Boston Patriots, or KC Chiefs, or Jim Ryan leading the Browns over
Baltimore in the 1964 NFL championship game, but doubt if video exists
of any of those games. Luck, post if you find a source.

Archived from group: rec>sport>football>pro

Rande · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

Hi All,
I'm wondering if there are stores that you can buy dvd's or tapes of NFL and
AFL football games from the 60's. Man, I'd love to see some complete Title
games from the early 60's.
I've seen plenty of short snippets from the early days of football but
trying to find complete games is driving me up a wall.
The owners must not have thought to tape games till the early 70's.
I've emailed different teams and it's no go for older games, NFL films is a
no go too.
I would think the NFL would have a gold mine with complete games on Tape
and dvd's. A lot of old folks like me and young fans would love to see the old
stars of football.
rande......

Rande · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

Thank you for your answer.
Rande

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

From what I've heard, CBS did tape the first two Super Bowls, then recorded
something else over the tapes because at the time videotape was very expensive.
I've seen partial videotapes of Super Bowl 3 available on Ebay, and videos are
available for all SB's since then although the quality is often less than
stellar depending on how many generations from the original tape the tape you
are watching is. Be advised that purchasing videotapes of sporting events is a
copyright infringement, and with that disclaimer in mind you can do an Ebay
search on "Packers VHS" or "Super Bowl VHS", and see what kinds of videos are
available for purchase.
But before 1970 you'll have little luck finding anything available on
videotape. The networks do have masters of most every game since then, but for
legal reasons they never allow rebroadcasts to be replayed. About fifteen
years ago I called NBC and asked how much it would cost for them to make me a
videotape copy of the Super Bowl 13 telecast, and they quoted me a figure of
two thousand dollars, and I felt the price was just a little too steep. Since
then I have acquired videotapes of the four Steeler SB's in the 70's, and the
quality of the tapes aren't too bad. I started videotaping every NFL postseason
game in 1986 and have virtually all playoff games from 1986 forward.
One thing you may wish to check out is any of the various trading rings on the
internet. There are online groups of sports video collectors who trade tapes
of sporting events amongst themselves. An internet search on the subject
"Sports videotape trading" will probably yield many of these groups.
How it works is you send him a tape of something he wants, and he sends you a
tape of what you want; both sides pay their own postage and all deals are done
in good faith. I've dealt with some of these groups and haven't had any
problems with them because these are generally people who are not out to make a
buck selling them. With many of these collectors, if you have nothing to trade
(or nothing they're interested in) they often do accept blank videotapes in
exchange for videotapes of games. Be wary of the grading systems that are used
for videotape trading, as some of the things they may have are virtually
unwatchable.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Rande · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

Thanks Mpoconnor7

I have bought a NFL made tape of Superbowl 3 which has almost every play of the
game plus different players and coaches talking about the game. That was the
game that got me interested in football. I didn't know squat about the game
or the NFL or AFL. All my friends at school were talking about how the Colts
were going to kick the Jets butt.
I thought, Hey!!! the Jets were the king of their league, they couldn't be
THAT bad of a team so I bet a couple of dollars on them and won.
I was in 11th grade with no part time job so a couple bucks meant something
to me. lol.
I became an AFL fan and read up on the history of the league. Dang, I wish
there was films of the early years.
I would even love to see some early 60's NFL title games too. I live near
Chicago so the 63 title game of the Bears and Giants would be a blast to watch,
not to mention all the Packer title games.
Rande.....

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

> I would even love to see some early 60's NFL title games too. I live near
>Chicago so the 63 title game of the Bears and Giants would be a blast to
>watch,
>not to mention all the Packer title games.

I've got 30 minute NFL Films shows on each of the 1963-1967 NFL Championship
games, plus a couple of the late 60's AFL Championship games. Those were some
good games; I wish I could see the entire games. NFL Films started in 1963
(they were originally known as Blair Films) and before that there are little if
any film footage available.
In watching old games versus modern games, I am struck by two things: (1) the
linemen in the 70's games were much smaller than they are today and (2) there
were far, far fewer commercials in the 1970's games than there are today. I
was watching a tape recently of a 1970 MNF game between the Vikings and Rams
and it still had the commercials in it (which I don't mind watching as they are
nostalgic) and it was all one minute commercial breaks thru the entire game.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Rande · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 17

>In watching old games versus modern games, I am struck by two things: (1) the
>linemen in the 70's games were much smaller than they are today.
..........................................
When I watch Superbowl 3 what hits me hard is it all appears to be a smaller,
slower game.
I think back then very few players used any type of drugs to improve their
size and speed and the lack of astroturf makes the players appear slower.
Being an old fogey that just means that MEN WERE MEN back then. (Dang, I
sound like my father. lolol)
rande...

Stan-Fan · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

CBS and NBC both broadcast Super Bowl 1 from Los Angeles. You might try
NBC, although they did the same thing CBS did, copy over television
tape. RCA owned NBC then, which had The Tonight Show, and many of those
episodes are lost.

There is a master copy of Super Bowl 1 and 2, Packers-Chiefs and
Packers-Raiders, but they are not shown for some reason. The nostalgic
replays of the Super Bowls start with Number 3 in the Orange Bowl in
Miami with Namath and the Jets upsetting the Baltimore Colts.

Watching that game today, it actually is quite boring, Joe was smart
enough to know he didn't have to pass much (although he could zing it
with the best ever), to beat the Colts. But, from an AFL fan's
standpoint, after two blowouts by the Packers of the Chiefs and Raiders,
the Jets pulling the upset was amazing. Established the AFL as a viable
football commodity - and led to the merger of the NFL-AFL.

Another blowout in game three, and the Super Bowl (which was known as
the NFL-AFL Championship Game, Super Bowl doesn't come along until a bit
later), followed by the Kansas City Chiefs coming back the next year to
smash Minnesota's Vikings, legitimizes the AFL, ends the talent bidding
war, and leads to the merger.

Thank Joe Willie Namath, white shoes, mink coats, and broads, NYC's
bright lights, and all, for what we have today in the way of NFL
football entertainment. He was the guy who started it all, first with
his $600,000 signing bonus out of Alabama to counter the Giants raid of
Buffalo's star kicker Pete Gogolak, than the Super Bowl upset.

Stan-Fan · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

I have a copy of the Houston - Buffalo greatest come-from-behind win
taped. Also unfortunately, have all four of the Bills Super Bowl losses
taped.

Rebroadcast of the Super Bowls has been on the ESPN - classic tv
channel, many times. Whatever CBS and NBC have of Super Bowl 1 & 2 has
never been rebroadcast, but I did read someone there has the master.
Vanderbilt University would know.

Michael, you couldn't be any farther from the truth on Joe Namath. If
you want to use statistics as the measure of a great QB, yea, he isn't
right up there with the great ones like Marino, Montana, Kelly, et al.
But, Namath epitomized the AFL, and his upset win of the Colts in Super
Bowl III made him a super-star.

He was the Professional Football - the AFL's brightest star, the one
everyone tuned in to see on the television, or paid the money to see at
the stadium. CBS and the NFL were losing the bidding war with the AFL
big time by the time Super Bowl III comes along.

First Namath, than Dawson - that ended it. The NFL, losing viewers
regularly to the much more exciting brand of AFL football - of which
Namath owned the stage, sued for peace - another Super Bowl blowout and
the fans would have tired of the Super Bowl, and the NFL would have
stopped it.

Instead, we get the merger with the AFL gaining two than legendary
teams, the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Colts, and the also then,
also-ran Pittsburgh Steelers moving over. Without Namath - the white
shoes, mink coats, the retirement from football for associating with
gamblers at his restaurant, and return to football, his battles with the
Raiders in the title game, none of what the NFL we see today would have
occured.

He is in the Hall Of Fame, he also could have won an Oscar. Nobody
overshadows him in his career in the NFL, even if the Jets remain the
NFL's most underachieving team since Super Bowl III.

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

>There is a master copy of Super Bowl 1 and 2, Packers-Chiefs and
>Packers-Raiders, but they are not shown for some reason.

I was under the impression that the master copies were taped over, and there
are no tapes of the first two Super Bowl telecasts available. The NFL has had
a rule against rebroadcasting telecasts for years and years; in 1993 after the
miracle comeback playoff game in Buffalo and the game was blacked out in
Buffalo because it wasn't a sell out and most local Bills fans never got to see
the game. The local Buffalo NBC affiliate approached the NFL the day after the
game about allowing them to rebroadcast the game in the Buffalo market and the
NFL refused the request.

The nostalgic
>replays of the Super Bowls start with Number 3 in the Orange Bowl in
>Miami with Namath and the Jets upsetting the Baltimore Colts.
>
>Watching that game today, it actually is quite boring, Joe was smart
>enough to know he didn't have to pass much (although he could zing it
>with the best ever), to beat the Colts. But, from an AFL fan's
>standpoint, after two blowouts by the Packers of the Chiefs and Raiders,
>the Jets pulling the upset was amazing. Established the AFL as a viable
>football commodity - and led to the merger of the NFL-AFL.

Namath didn't win the game as much as the Jets defense won the game by shutting
down the high powered Colts offense. Joe played an extremely conservative game
compared to what most people expected from him.
>
>Another blowout in game three, and the Super Bowl (which was known as
>the NFL-AFL Championship Game, Super Bowl doesn't come along until a bit
>later), followed by the Kansas City Chiefs coming back the next year to
>smash Minnesota's Vikings, legitimizes the AFL, ends the talent bidding
>war, and leads to the merger.

I've always considered the Chiefs trouncing the Vikings to be a bigger upset
than Jets Colts. For one thing, the Vikings in the late 60's and early 70's
had arguably the greatest defense of all time, and Kansas City dismantled their
defense. Another thing is that in the week before the game, rumors came out
that Chiefs QB Len Dawson was connected to gamblers; if the Chiefs were
slaughtered in the Super Bowl like most people thought they would be, there
would be those who felt that Dawson threw the game.

>
>Thank Joe Willie Namath, white shoes, mink coats, and broads, NYC's
>bright lights, and all, for what we have today in the way of NFL
>football entertainment. He was the guy who started it all, first with
>his $600,000 signing bonus out of Alabama to counter the Giants raid of
>Buffalo's star kicker Pete Gogolak, than the Super Bowl upset.
>

I've always felt Namath was clearly the most overrated player in NFL history.
They asked him if he thought he would win the game, and of course he said the
Jets would win; do you really think he would have said "We'll get our tails
beat by the Colts." If he hadn't been the winning QB in that game, he would
not be in the HOF, and today wouldn't be any more highly regarded than Darryl
Lamonica or John Hadl or Norm Snead or Jim Hart is today. He got all the
credit for winning the game when much of it should have gone to his defense,
and to Matt Snell. Namath was a very good QB in his prime (which was short),
but he wasn't one of the all time greats.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

>Rebroadcast of the Super Bowls has been on the ESPN - classic tv
>channel, many times. Whatever CBS and NBC have of Super Bowl 1 & 2 has
>never been rebroadcast, but I did read someone there has the master.
>Vanderbilt University would know.

ESPN Classic does play the 30 minute NFL Films highlights of the Super Bowls,
but they are contractually forbidden from ever showing the entire actual
telecasts of any NFL games, although on occasion (like a Sportscentury show
about Namath) they could use some of the NBC telecast of the Super Bowl III
game when showing highlights of the game. They've never aired the entire
actual telecasts of Super Bowls; I wish they did, though. Of course, if they
did, they would probably edit them to fit into a two hour timeslot like they do
with classic College Football games they telecast.
On the new NFL Channel that IIRC is debuting any time now (available only on
Direct TV), they will allegedly show rebroadcasts of the weeks games. Perhaps
during the off season months they will start airing some of the old games in
their archives.
Direct TV has the NFL contractually tied up for a couple more seasons with
their Sunday Ticket; after that I expect the NFL to start airing a pay per view
package not unlike Sunday Ticket for regular cable subscribers.

>First Namath, than Dawson - that ended it. The NFL, losing viewers
>regularly to the much more exciting brand of AFL football - of which
>Namath owned the stage, sued for peace - another Super Bowl blowout and
>the fans would have tired of the Super Bowl, and the NFL would have
>stopped it.
>
>Instead, we get the merger with the AFL gaining two than legendary
>teams, the Cleveland Browns and the Baltimore Colts, and the also then,
>also-ran Pittsburgh Steelers moving over. Without Namath - the white
>shoes, mink coats, the retirement from football for associating with
>gamblers at his restaurant, and return to football, his battles with the
>Raiders in the title game, none of what the NFL we see today would have
>occured.

Actually, the merger was agreed to before the first Super Bowl had been played.
In the spring of 1966, Chiefs owner Lamar Hunt and Dallas GM Tex Schramm had a
series of secret meetings to hammer out a peace agreement between the AFL and
NFL. As part of the deal struck in 1966, the merger was set for the 1970
season, with a common AFL NFL draft (to end the bitter bidding wars) for 1967,
several teams would move from the NFC to AFC to balance the number of teams in
each conference, and the Super Bowl to be played after the 1966 season. It was
in 1969 that Pittsburgh, Cleveland and Baltimore decided to jump to the new AFC
in order for financial considerations.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Stan-Fan · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Beg to differ, Lamar Hunt, an owner, and Tex Schramm, a GM, might have
had a secret meeting, but it wasn't approved by NFL Prez Pete Roselle at
the time, even if he knew about it, or condoned it. Also, nothing ever
came out that Bert Bell (believe was the AFL commisioner) knew anything
about a secret meeting - the AFL was solid, with a great tv contract and
product.

It took the Super Bowl upset of the Colts and Vikings to convince
Roselle of the merger. The common draft was a given - the NFL teams
couldn't afford the war, that is what was discussed and agreed upon, and
it wasn't secret but public knowledge they were negotiating it - mainly
because the AFL was outdrawing the NFL in television viewers. Remember
the famous Hedi Game?

That also is the reason (television ratings, that the NFL agreed to hold
a playoff, later known as the Super Bowl - a press label). The NFL hoped
that by blowing out the AFL teams (as the Packers did), that the country
would see the AFL as a minor league, not NFL caliber, and it almost
worked, but thanks to Joe Namath, and Hank Stram's game plan with
Dawson's "moving pocket" the entire complexion of professional football
was changed forever when the Jets and Namath took the Colts.

Also, the TV contracts were discussed publicy. Pittsburgh, Cleveland and
Baltimore moved to the newly created AFC, based on the Rooney's
influence, prior to that, neither the Colts or Bowns would hear of it.
Until the day it was announced, nobody knew a thing about a merger -
MOF, the Cleveland and Baltimore fans were not at all happy with the
transition. Common draft ending the war would have taken place, and the
Super Bowl would have continued, but the fans would quickly have lost
interest in that game if the AFL champion was blown away again.

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

>Beg to differ, Lamar Hunt, an owner, and Tex Schramm, a GM, might have
>had a secret meeting, but it wasn't approved by NFL Prez Pete Roselle at
>the time, even if he knew about it, or condoned it. Also, nothing ever
>came out that Bert Bell (believe was the AFL commisioner) knew anything
>about a secret meeting - the AFL was solid, with a great tv contract and
>product.
>
>It took the Super Bowl upset of the Colts and Vikings to convince
>Roselle of the merger. The common draft was a given - the NFL teams
>couldn't afford the war, that is what was discussed and agreed upon, and
>it wasn't secret but public knowledge they were negotiating it - mainly
>because the AFL was outdrawing the NFL in television viewers. Remember
>the famous Hedi Game?
>
>That also is the reason (television ratings, that the NFL agreed to hold
>a playoff, later known as the Super Bowl - a press label). The NFL hoped
>that by blowing out the AFL teams (as the Packers did), that the country
>would see the AFL as a minor league, not NFL caliber, and it almost
>worked, but thanks to Joe Namath, and Hank Stram's game plan with
>Dawson's "moving pocket" the entire complexion of professional football
>was changed forever when the Jets and Namath took the Colts.
>
>Also, the TV contracts were discussed publicy. Pittsburgh, Cleveland and
>Baltimore moved to the newly created AFC, based on the Rooney's
>influence, prior to that, neither the Colts or Bowns would hear of it.
>Until the day it was announced, nobody knew a thing about a merger -
>MOF, the Cleveland and Baltimore fans were not at all happy with the
>transition. Common draft ending the war would have taken place, and the
>Super Bowl would have continued, but the fans would quickly have lost
>interest in that game if the AFL champion was blown away again.
>
>

From the 2003 NFL Record and Fact Book pg 401 under "Chronology of Professional
Football" for the year 1966:

"A series of secret meetings regarding a possible NFL-AFL merger were held in
the spring between Hunt of Kansas City and Tex Schramm of Dallas. Rozelle
announced the merger June 8. Under the agreement, the two leagues would
combine to form an expanded league, with 24 teams, to be increased to 26 in
1968, and to 28 by 1970 or soon thereafter. All existing franchises would be
retained, and no franchises would be transferred outside their metropolitan
areas. While maintaining separate schedules through 1969, the leagues agreed
to play an annual NFL-AFL Championship Game beginnning in January, 1967, and to
hold a combined draft, also beginning in 1967. Preseason games would be held
between teams of each league beginning in 1967. Official regular season play
would start in 1970 when the two leagues would officially merge to form one
league with two conferences. Rozelle was named Commissioner of the expanded
league setup."

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Stan-Fan · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 44

Ya got me on this one, only thing I ever heard about was the pre-season
exhibitions, of which Denver - Minnesota - I think - was the first, and
the playolf. I don't remember ever hearing about the merger of the two
leagues until after the Jets-Colts SB, or even speculation as to who
would move until the day it was announced that the Browns, Colts and
Steelers were the teams. It was the NFL that called "uncle" in the
pro-football wars - the common draft was also discussed openly, that I
remember, the price of that being the Super Bowl, which the NFL didn't
want at the time.

user · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

mpoconnor7@aol.comnojunk (Mpoconnor7) wrote in message news:...
> From what I've heard, CBS did tape the first two Super Bowls, then recorded
> something else over the tapes because at the time videotape was very expensive.
> I've seen partial videotapes of Super Bowl 3 available on Ebay, and videos are
> available for all SB's since then although the quality is often less than
> stellar depending on how many generations from the original tape the tape you
> are watching is. Be advised that purchasing videotapes of sporting events is a
> copyright infringement, and with that disclaimer in mind you can do an Ebay
> search on "Packers VHS" or "Super Bowl VHS", and see what kinds of videos are
> available for purchase.
> But before 1970 you'll have little luck finding anything available on
> videotape. The networks do have masters of most every game since then, but for
> legal reasons they never allow rebroadcasts to be replayed. About fifteen
> years ago I called NBC and asked how much it would cost for them to make me a
> videotape copy of the Super Bowl 13 telecast, and they quoted me a figure of
> two thousand dollars, and I felt the price was just a little too steep. Since
> then I have acquired videotapes of the four Steeler SB's in the 70's, and the
> quality of the tapes aren't too bad. I started videotaping every NFL postseason
> game in 1986 and have virtually all playoff games from 1986 forward.
> One thing you may wish to check out is any of the various trading rings on the
> internet. There are online groups of sports video collectors who trade tapes
> of sporting events amongst themselves. An internet search on the subject
> "Sports videotape trading" will probably yield many of these groups.
> How it works is you send him a tape of something he wants, and he sends you a
> tape of what you want; both sides pay their own postage and all deals are done
> in good faith. I've dealt with some of these groups and haven't had any
> problems with them because these are generally people who are not out to make a
> buck selling them. With many of these collectors, if you have nothing to trade
> (or nothing they're interested in) they often do accept blank videotapes in
> exchange for videotapes of games. Be wary of the grading systems that are used
> for videotape trading, as some of the things they may have are virtually
> unwatchable.
>

Thank you Mpoconnor7 for your revealing posts on this topic. I also
would LOVE to see the old AFL games in their entirety, as well as the
NFL games from the 1960s and the post-merger games from the '70s. For
one thing, the game was a lot more aggressive back in those years
(fewer rules, for one thing), and also, it would be great to watch the
old commercials that came with them.

There is one thing that I have always been curious about concerning
the NFL and its television policy. At one time, the league prohibited
television camera crews from airing certain things during telecasts
(such as on-field fights, mostly). Now, from what I understand, the
AFL did not have such a censorship policy and pretty much ruled that
TV viewers were entitled to see the same things as viewers at the
games. What I am curious about is: about when did the NFL begin
allowing fights to be shown on TV during live games?