2004 Hall of Fame Preliminary Nominees list

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

From the NFL Hall of Fame website, with my player comments added at the bottom:

Sixty-Seven on the Hall's Nomination List for the Class of 2004

Former Denver Broncos quarterback John Elway, a first-year eligible candidate,
heads a list of sixty-seven former players, coaches, and contributors who make
up the preliminary list of nominees for election to the Pro Football Hall of
Fame's Class of 2004.

From this preliminary list, Hall of Fame selectors will choose 23
semi-finalists that will be added to two carryover candidates from last year.
Former New York Giants linebacker Harry Carson and team and league executive
George Young are automatic finalists because they finished in the top six in
the voting last year. The list of 25 semi-finalists will be announced in early
November.

The 25 semi-finalists list will be reduced by a mail ballot to 13 modern-era
candidates (11 plus Carson and Young). That list will increase to 15 finalists
with the addition of two previously announced Senior Committee nominees, Bob
Brown and Bob Hayes. Brown was an All-NFL tackle with the Philadelphia Eagles
(1964-1968), Los Angeles Rams (1969-1970), and Oakland Raiders (1971-1973), and
Bob Hayes, an All-NFL wide receiver with the Dallas Cowboys (1965-1974) and the
San Francisco 49ers (1975).

The Class of 2004 will be selected from the list of 15 finalists. The actual
voting will be conducted at the Selection Committee's annual meeting, which
will be held on Saturday, January 31, 2004, in Houston, Texas, the day before
Super Bowl XXXVIII. The election results will be announced immediately after
the meeting at a press conference in the media headquarters. While there is no
set number for any class of enshrinees, the ground rules provide that between
three and six new members will be selected. This is a change in the Hall of
Fame's By-Laws as of 2004. Prior to 2004, the rules stipulated that between
four and seven members would be selected.

This is also the first year that Hall of Fame selectors will have the
opportunity to consider two senior nominees among the 15 finalists. Previously,
only one senior nominee was considered each year. Additionally, this is the
first time the selectors will vote to reduce the preliminary modern-era
candidate list to 25 semi-finalists before reducing to 15 finalists.

Other first-year eligible candidates joining Elway for consideration for the
Class of 2004 include running back Barry Sanders, wide receiver Henry Ellard,
and defensive back Albert Lewis. Also on the impressive preliminary list are
three former head coaches, and seven contributors, including NFL Commissioner
Paul Tagliabue.

To be considered for Hall of Fame election, a nominated player must have been
retired at least five years. For a non-player, there is no mandatory retirement
period, but a coach must be retired before he may be considered. A contributor,
who is a nominee who has made outstanding contributions to pro football in
capacities other than playing or coaching, may still be active in his pro
football career.

Quarterbacks
Ken Anderson - Augustana (IL) - 1971-1986 Cincinnati Bengals
John Elway# - Stanford - 1983-1998 Denver Broncos
Jim Plunkett - Stanford - 1971-1975 New England Patriots, 1976-1977 San
Francisco 49ers, 1979-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Phil Simms - Morehead St. - 1979-1993 New York Giants, injured-1982
Ken Stabler* - Alabama - 1970-1979 Oakland Raiders, 1980-1981 Houston Oilers,
1982-1984 New Orleans Saints

Elway is an absolute lock to be enshrined on the first try. I'd like to see
Stabler go in, and Ken Anderson was one of the most underrated QB's in NFL
history although I doubt he has any chance of enshrinement. I don't think any
of the others will ever get much support.

Running Backs
Roger Craig - Nebraska - 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles
Raiders, 1992-1993 Minnesota Vikings
Barry Sanders# - Oklahoma State - 1989-1998 Detroit Lions
Herschel Walker - Georgia - 1986-1989, 1996-1997 Dallas Cowboys, 1989-1991
Minnesota Vikings, 1992-1994 Philadelphia Eagles, 1995 New York Giants

Like Elway, Sanders will go in on the first try. I'm probably in the minority
on this, but I think Herschel Walker should go into the HOF at some point. His
career stats in the NFL were hurt severely by the three years he spent in the
USFL at the start of his career. He ran roughshod over the USFL, and there is
every reason to believe that he would have done very well in the NFL. He is
perhaps the one player whose performance in the USFL has to be taken into
consideration when evaluating his career. He was IMO one of the twenty
greatest running backs in Pro Football history, and probably lost three
thousand career rushing yards that he would have gained in the NFL had he
stayed his final season at Georgia and had gotten two years in the NFL during
his USFL career.

Wide Receivers
Cliff Branch - Warton County (TX) Junior College; Colorado - 1972-1985
Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Henry Ellard# - Fresno State - 1983-1993 Los Angeles Rams, 1994-1998 Washington
Redskins, 1998 New England Patriots
Art Monk* - Syracuse - 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets, 1995
Philadelphia Eagles
Drew Pearson - Tulsa - 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys
Sterling Sharpe - South Carolina - 1988-1994 Green Bay Packers
Wesley Walker - California - 1977-1989 New York Jets
Tight End
Todd Christensen - Brigham Young - 1979 New York Giants, 1979-1988 Oakland/Los
Angeles Raiders

Art Monk should go in this season. Branch and Pearson will go into the HOF
eventually.

Offensive Linemen
Centers
Ray Donaldson - Georgia - 1980-1992 Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts, 1993-1994
Seattle Seahawks, 1995-1996 Dallas Cowboys
Kent Hull - Mississippi State - 1986-1996 Buffalo Bills
Rich Saul - Michigan State - 1970-1981 Los Angeles Rams
Jeff Van Note - Kentucky - 1969-1986 Atlanta Falcons
Guards
Russ Grimm - Pittsburgh - 1981-1991 Washington Redskins
Chris Hinton (also T) - Northwestern - 1983-1989 Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts,
1990-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994-1995 Minnesota Vikings
Bob Kuenchenberg* - Notre Dame - 1970-1983 Miami Dolphins
Tackles
Leon Gray - Jackson State - 1973-1978 New England Patriots, 1979-1981 Houston
Oilers, 1982-1983 New Orleans Saints
Joe Jacoby - Louisville - 1981-1993 Washington Redskins
Mike Kenn - Michigan - 1978-1994 Atlanta Falcons
Rayfield Wright - Fort Valley State - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
Gary Zimmerman* - Oregon - 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-1997 Denver
Broncos

Why is Tommy Nobis not on this list? I guess he must be on the Senior
Committee list, but he should already be in there.

Defensive Linemen
Fred Dean (DE) - Louisiana Tech - 1975-1981 San Diego Chargers, 1981-1985 San
Francisco 49ers
Richard Dent (DE) - Tennessee State - 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994 San
Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles
Carl Eller (DE) - Minnesota - 1964-1978 Minnesota Vikings, 1979 Seattle
Seahawks
Mark Gastineau (DE) - Eastern Arizona College (J.C.), Arizona State, East
Central (OK) - 1979-1988 New York Jets
L.C. Greenwood (DE) - Arkansas AM&N - 1969-1981 Pittsburgh Steelers
Claude Humphrey* (DE) - Tennessee State - 1968-1974, 1976-1978 Atlanta Falcons,
1979-1981 Philadelphia Eagles
Ed "Too Tall" Jones (DE) - Tennessee State - 1974-1978, 1980-1989 Dallas
Cowboys
Joe Klecko (DE-DT-NT) - Temple - 1977-1987 New York Jets, 1988 Indianapolis
Colts
Jim Marshall (DE) - Ohio State - 1960 Cleveland Browns, 1961-1979 Minnesota
Vikings
Harvey Martin (DE) - East Texas State - 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys

I can't believe Jim Marshall is not already in there. LC Greenwood and Donnie
Shell will be the final two 70's Steelers to be inducted into the HOF.

Linebackers
Matt Blair - Northeastern Oklahoma A&M (JC), Iowa State - 1974-1985 Minnesota
Vikings
Harry Carson** - South Carolina State - 1976-1988 New York Giants
Randy Gradishar* - Ohio State - 1974-1983 Denver Broncos
Rickey Jackson - Pittsburgh - 1981-1993 New Orleans Saints, 1994-1995 San
Francisco 49ers
Clay Matthews - Southern California - 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns, 1994-1996
Atlanta Falcons
Karl Mecklenburg - Augustana (SD); Minnesota - 1983-1994 Denver Broncos
Chris Spielman - Ohio State - 1988-1995 Detroit Lions, 1996-1997 Buffalo Bills
Darryl Talley - West Virginia - 1983-1994 Buffalo Bills, 1995 Atlanta Falcons,
1996 Minnesota Vikings
Andre Tippett - Iowa - 1982-1993 New England Patriots, injured - 1989

Defensive Backs
Cliff Harris (S) - Ouachita Baptist - 1970-1979 Dallas Cowboys
Lester Hayes* (CB) - Texas A&M - 1977-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders

Albert Lewis# (CB) - Grambling State - 1983-1993 Kansas City Chiefs, 1994-1998
Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders
Ken Riley (CB) - Florida A&M - 1969-1983 Cincinnati Bengals
Donnie Shell (S) - South Carolina State - 1974-1987 Pittsburgh Steelers
Mike Wagner (S) - Western Illinois - 1971-1980 Pittsburgh Steelers
Roger Wehrli (CB) - Missouri - 1969-1982 St. Louis Cardinals

Lester Hayes was a good defensive back who was the player most responsible for
the banning of Stickum because he would smear it all over his uniform. I've
often felt that he gained an unfair advantage from his fetish to stickum, and
would not move him to the front of the list.

Special Teams/Position Players
Elbert Shelley (DB) - Arkansas State - 1987-1996 Atlanta Falcons
Steve Tasker (WR) - Dodge City CC (KS), Northwestern - 1985-1986 Houston
Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills

Tasker will probably make the HOF eventually; he was probably the most famous
"twelfth man" in NFL history, who made a name for himself for his play on
covering punts and kickoffs.

Punter/Kicker
Ray Guy (P) - Southern Mississippi - 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
Nick Lowery (K) - Dartmouth - 1978 New England Patriots, 1980-1993 Kansas City
Chiefs, 1994-1996 New York Jets

I think they should both be in the HOF; Ray Guy should have been inducted ten
years ago. Ray Guy was probably the best punter in NFL history with the
possible exception of Sammy Baugh
I am in the process of completing a analytical research paper on placekickers
that should be published before the end of the year, and through my research
have reached the conclusion that Nick Lowery was arguably the greatest kicker
in NFL history, and at the very least ranks with Lou Groza and Jan Stenerud as
the very best of all time. I feel that Lowery made a greater contribution to
his teams than either Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen, both of whom will go
into the HOF.

Coaches
Don Coryell - Washington - 1973-1977 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San Diego
Chargers
Jimmy Johnson - Arkansas - 1989-1993 Dallas Cowboys, 1996-1999 Miami Dolphins
Chuck Knox - Juniata College (PA) - 1973-1977 Los Angeles Rams, 1978-1982
Buffalo Bills, 1983-1991 Seattle Seahawks, 1992-1994 Los Angeles Rams

The fact that Jimmy Johnson couldn't get the Dolphins over the hump does not
help his HOF case.

Contributors
Ed DeBartolo, Jr. - Notre Dame - 1979-1997 San Francisco 49ers
Art McNally - Temple - 1968-1991 National Football League
Art Modell - 1961-1995 Cleveland Browns, 1996-Present Baltimore Ravens
Paul Tagliabue - Georgetown, New York University - 1989-present National
Football League
Ralph Wilson, Jr.* - Virginia, Michigan - 1959-Present Buffalo Bills
Ron Wolf - Georgetown, New York University - 1991-2001 Green Bay Packers
George Young** - Bucknell University - 1979-1997 New York Giants

I think his being banned from the NFL for his shady business dealings does not
help DeBartolo; also the whole Carmen Policy Salary Cap mess was not a good
thing either.. I would hate to see Art Modell inducted for what he did to the
football fans of Cleveland when he moved his Browns to Baltimore; he does not
deserve to be inducted into the HOF but should be hung in effigy outside every
NFL stadium. Pete Rozelle had to wait twenty five years after he took over as
Commissioner before he was inducted into the HOF, and Tagliabue will probably
have to wait a while.

* On last year's 15 Finalists List | ** Automatically on the 15 Finalists
List for 2004 | # First year of eligibility

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Archived from group: rec>sport>football>pro

Cameron Laird · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

In article ,
Mpoconnor7 wrote:
.
.
.
>Elway is an absolute lock to be enshrined on the first try. I'd like to see
>Stabler go in, and Ken Anderson was one of the most underrated QB's in NFL
>history although I doubt he has any chance of enshrinement. I don't think any
Anderson underrated: agreed.
.
.
.
>Running Backs
>Roger Craig - Nebraska - 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles
>Raiders, 1992-1993 Minnesota Vikings
>Barry Sanders# - Oklahoma State - 1989-1998 Detroit Lions
>Herschel Walker - Georgia - 1986-1989, 1996-1997 Dallas Cowboys, 1989-1991
>Minnesota Vikings, 1992-1994 Philadelphia Eagles, 1995 New York Giants
>
>Like Elway, Sanders will go in on the first try. I'm probably in the minority
>on this, but I think Herschel Walker should go into the HOF at some point. His
>career stats in the NFL were hurt severely by the three years he spent in the
>USFL at the start of his career. He ran roughshod over the USFL, and there is
>every reason to believe that he would have done very well in the NFL. He is
>perhaps the one player whose performance in the USFL has to be taken into
>consideration when evaluating his career. He was IMO one of the twenty
>greatest running backs in Pro Football history, and probably lost three
>thousand career rushing yards that he would have gained in the NFL had he
>stayed his final season at Georgia and had gotten two years in the NFL during
>his USFL career.
Jim Kelly: he's actually the first that comes to my mind
when considering players whose USFL years burnished their
records.

Walker deserves in: agreed.
.
.
.
>Tackles
>Leon Gray - Jackson State - 1973-1978 New England Patriots, 1979-1981 Houston
>Oilers, 1982-1983 New Orleans Saints
>Joe Jacoby - Louisville - 1981-1993 Washington Redskins
>Mike Kenn - Michigan - 1978-1994 Atlanta Falcons
>Rayfield Wright - Fort Valley State - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
>Gary Zimmerman* - Oregon - 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-1997 Denver
>Broncos
>
>Why is Tommy Nobis not on this list? I guess he must be on the Senior
>Committee list, but he should already be in there.
>
>Defensive Linemen
? Nobis should be with linebackers, right?
.
.
.
>I can't believe Jim Marshall is not already in there. LC Greenwood and Donnie
>Shell will be the final two 70's Steelers to be inducted into the HOF.
What do you think of Eller? Humphrey?
.
.
.
>Special Teams/Position Players
>Elbert Shelley (DB) - Arkansas State - 1987-1996 Atlanta Falcons
>Steve Tasker (WR) - Dodge City CC (KS), Northwestern - 1985-1986 Houston
>Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills
>
>Tasker will probably make the HOF eventually; he was probably the most famous
>"twelfth man" in NFL history, who made a name for himself for his play on
>covering punts and kickoffs.
That'd be neat.
>
>Punter/Kicker
>Ray Guy (P) - Southern Mississippi - 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
>Nick Lowery (K) - Dartmouth - 1978 New England Patriots, 1980-1993 Kansas City
>Chiefs, 1994-1996 New York Jets
>
>I think they should both be in the HOF; Ray Guy should have been inducted ten
>years ago. Ray Guy was probably the best punter in NFL history with the
>possible exception of Sammy Baugh
> I am in the process of completing a analytical research paper on placekickers
>that should be published before the end of the year, and through my research
>have reached the conclusion that Nick Lowery was arguably the greatest kicker
>in NFL history, and at the very least ranks with Lou Groza and Jan Stenerud as
>the very best of all time. I feel that Lowery made a greater contribution to
>his teams than either Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen, both of whom will go
>into the HOF.
Provocative. Guy certainly is long overdue.
.
.
.
--

Cameron Laird
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

bryan K · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 45

Interesting background snipped:

>
> Quarterbacks
> Ken Anderson - Augustana (IL) - 1971-1986 Cincinnati Bengals
> John Elway# - Stanford - 1983-1998 Denver Broncos
> Jim Plunkett - Stanford - 1971-1975 New England Patriots, 1976-1977 San
> Francisco 49ers, 1979-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
> Phil Simms - Morehead St. - 1979-1993 New York Giants, injured-1982
> Ken Stabler* - Alabama - 1970-1979 Oakland Raiders, 1980-1981 Houston
Oilers,
> 1982-1984 New Orleans Saints
>
> Elway is an absolute lock to be enshrined on the first try. I'd like to
see
> Stabler go in, and Ken Anderson was one of the most underrated QB's in NFL
> history although I doubt he has any chance of enshrinement. I don't think
any
> of the others will ever get much support.

I agree 100%. Simms, Plunkett, and Anderson are all on the bad side of
borderline.

>
> Running Backs
> Roger Craig - Nebraska - 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles
> Raiders, 1992-1993 Minnesota Vikings
> Barry Sanders# - Oklahoma State - 1989-1998 Detroit Lions
> Herschel Walker - Georgia - 1986-1989, 1996-1997 Dallas Cowboys, 1989-1991
> Minnesota Vikings, 1992-1994 Philadelphia Eagles, 1995 New York Giants
>
> Like Elway, Sanders will go in on the first try. I'm probably in the
minority
> on this, but I think Herschel Walker should go into the HOF at some point.
His
> career stats in the NFL were hurt severely by the three years he spent in
the
> USFL at the start of his career. He ran roughshod over the USFL, and
there is
> every reason to believe that he would have done very well in the NFL. He
is
> perhaps the one player whose performance in the USFL has to be taken into
> consideration when evaluating his career. He was IMO one of the twenty
> greatest running backs in Pro Football history, and probably lost three
> thousand career rushing yards that he would have gained in the NFL had he
> stayed his final season at Georgia and had gotten two years in the NFL
during
> his USFL career.

Frankly, I think all three of these running backs are HOF worthy, but I have
a feeling that Walker might be the odd man out here. I agree, his USFL
stats should have some bearing on what he could have accomplished in the
NFL, but he missed the Cowboys' glory days and that will loom huge. He will
forever be overshadowed by the man who replaced him and the fact that he
didn't live up to expectations in Minnesota. On the other hand, people will
look at Craig's importance in the Niners' championship years of the late
'80's.

>
> Wide Receivers
> Cliff Branch - Warton County (TX) Junior College; Colorado - 1972-1985
> Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
> Henry Ellard# - Fresno State - 1983-1993 Los Angeles Rams, 1994-1998
Washington
> Redskins, 1998 New England Patriots
> Art Monk* - Syracuse - 1980-1993 Washington Redskins, 1994 New York Jets,
1995
> Philadelphia Eagles
> Drew Pearson - Tulsa - 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys
> Sterling Sharpe - South Carolina - 1988-1994 Green Bay Packers
> Wesley Walker - California - 1977-1989 New York Jets
> Tight End
> Todd Christensen - Brigham Young - 1979 New York Giants, 1979-1988
Oakland/Los
> Angeles Raiders
>
> Art Monk should go in this season. Branch and Pearson will go into the
HOF
> eventually.

I agree with this as well.

>
> Offensive Linemen
> Centers
> Ray Donaldson - Georgia - 1980-1992 Baltimore/Indianapolis Colts,
1993-1994
> Seattle Seahawks, 1995-1996 Dallas Cowboys
> Kent Hull - Mississippi State - 1986-1996 Buffalo Bills
> Rich Saul - Michigan State - 1970-1981 Los Angeles Rams
> Jeff Van Note - Kentucky - 1969-1986 Atlanta Falcons
> Guards
> Russ Grimm - Pittsburgh - 1981-1991 Washington Redskins
> Chris Hinton (also T) - Northwestern - 1983-1989 Baltimore/Indianapolis
Colts,
> 1990-1993 Atlanta Falcons, 1994-1995 Minnesota Vikings
> Bob Kuenchenberg* - Notre Dame - 1970-1983 Miami Dolphins
> Tackles
> Leon Gray - Jackson State - 1973-1978 New England Patriots, 1979-1981
Houston
> Oilers, 1982-1983 New Orleans Saints
> Joe Jacoby - Louisville - 1981-1993 Washington Redskins
> Mike Kenn - Michigan - 1978-1994 Atlanta Falcons
> Rayfield Wright - Fort Valley State - 1967-1979 Dallas Cowboys
> Gary Zimmerman* - Oregon - 1986-1992 Minnesota Vikings, 1993-1997 Denver
> Broncos
>
> Why is Tommy Nobis not on this list? I guess he must be on the Senior
> Committee list, but he should already be in there.

It's awefully tough to pick out offensive linemen.

>
> Defensive Linemen
> Fred Dean (DE) - Louisiana Tech - 1975-1981 San Diego Chargers, 1981-1985
San
> Francisco 49ers
> Richard Dent (DE) - Tennessee State - 1983-1993, 1995 Chicago Bears, 1994
San
> Francisco 49ers, 1996 Indianapolis Colts, 1997 Philadelphia Eagles
> Carl Eller (DE) - Minnesota - 1964-1978 Minnesota Vikings, 1979 Seattle
> Seahawks
> Mark Gastineau (DE) - Eastern Arizona College (J.C.), Arizona State, East
> Central (OK) - 1979-1988 New York Jets
> L.C. Greenwood (DE) - Arkansas AM&N - 1969-1981 Pittsburgh Steelers
> Claude Humphrey* (DE) - Tennessee State - 1968-1974, 1976-1978 Atlanta
Falcons,
> 1979-1981 Philadelphia Eagles
> Ed "Too Tall" Jones (DE) - Tennessee State - 1974-1978, 1980-1989 Dallas
> Cowboys
> Joe Klecko (DE-DT-NT) - Temple - 1977-1987 New York Jets, 1988
Indianapolis
> Colts
> Jim Marshall (DE) - Ohio State - 1960 Cleveland Browns, 1961-1979
Minnesota
> Vikings
> Harvey Martin (DE) - East Texas State - 1973-1983 Dallas Cowboys
>
> I can't believe Jim Marshall is not already in there. LC Greenwood and
Donnie
> Shell will be the final two 70's Steelers to be inducted into the HOF.

I see six players on this list who would get my vote.... Dent, Eller,
Gastineau, Jones, Marshall, and Greenwood..

>
> Linebackers
> Matt Blair - Northeastern Oklahoma A&M (JC), Iowa State - 1974-1985
Minnesota
> Vikings
> Harry Carson** - South Carolina State - 1976-1988 New York Giants
> Randy Gradishar* - Ohio State - 1974-1983 Denver Broncos
> Rickey Jackson - Pittsburgh - 1981-1993 New Orleans Saints, 1994-1995 San
> Francisco 49ers
> Clay Matthews - Southern California - 1978-1993 Cleveland Browns,
1994-1996
> Atlanta Falcons
> Karl Mecklenburg - Augustana (SD); Minnesota - 1983-1994 Denver Broncos
> Chris Spielman - Ohio State - 1988-1995 Detroit Lions, 1996-1997 Buffalo
Bills
> Darryl Talley - West Virginia - 1983-1994 Buffalo Bills, 1995 Atlanta
Falcons,
> 1996 Minnesota Vikings
> Andre Tippett - Iowa - 1982-1993 New England Patriots, injured - 1989

I'm not sure I would vote for any of these guys. Jackson, Mecklenburg,
Talley, Spielman, and Tippett were all great....but HOF worthy?

>
>
> Defensive Backs
> Cliff Harris (S) - Ouachita Baptist - 1970-1979 Dallas Cowboys
> Lester Hayes* (CB) - Texas A&M - 1977-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
>
> Albert Lewis# (CB) - Grambling State - 1983-1993 Kansas City Chiefs,
1994-1998
> Los Angeles/Oakland Raiders
> Ken Riley (CB) - Florida A&M - 1969-1983 Cincinnati Bengals
> Donnie Shell (S) - South Carolina State - 1974-1987 Pittsburgh Steelers
> Mike Wagner (S) - Western Illinois - 1971-1980 Pittsburgh Steelers
> Roger Wehrli (CB) - Missouri - 1969-1982 St. Louis Cardinals
>
> Lester Hayes was a good defensive back who was the player most responsible
for
> the banning of Stickum because he would smear it all over his uniform.
I've
> often felt that he gained an unfair advantage from his fetish to stickum,
and
> would not move him to the front of the list.

I can't hold something against someone if he did it when it wasn't illegal.
Sounds like ex post facto to me. Hayes and Shell would get my votes.

>
> Special Teams/Position Players
> Elbert Shelley (DB) - Arkansas State - 1987-1996 Atlanta Falcons
> Steve Tasker (WR) - Dodge City CC (KS), Northwestern - 1985-1986 Houston
> Oilers, 1986-1997 Buffalo Bills
>
> Tasker will probably make the HOF eventually; he was probably the most
famous
> "twelfth man" in NFL history, who made a name for himself for his play on
> covering punts and kickoffs.

And was a big, overshadowed part of that Bills team that dominated the AFC
for four years.

>
> Punter/Kicker
> Ray Guy (P) - Southern Mississippi - 1973-1986 Oakland/Los Angeles Raiders
> Nick Lowery (K) - Dartmouth - 1978 New England Patriots, 1980-1993 Kansas
City
> Chiefs, 1994-1996 New York Jets
>
> I think they should both be in the HOF; Ray Guy should have been inducted
ten
> years ago. Ray Guy was probably the best punter in NFL history with the
> possible exception of Sammy Baugh
> I am in the process of completing a analytical research paper on
placekickers
> that should be published before the end of the year, and through my
research
> have reached the conclusion that Nick Lowery was arguably the greatest
kicker
> in NFL history, and at the very least ranks with Lou Groza and Jan
Stenerud as
> the very best of all time. I feel that Lowery made a greater contribution
to
> his teams than either Gary Anderson and Morten Andersen, both of whom will
go
> into the HOF.

I wouldn't have agreed with your assessment of Lowery, but I'll take your
word for it. Guy belongs in the hall. I've been making a case for him for
years.

>
> Coaches
> Don Coryell - Washington - 1973-1977 St. Louis Cardinals, 1978-1986 San
Diego
> Chargers
> Jimmy Johnson - Arkansas - 1989-1993 Dallas Cowboys, 1996-1999 Miami
Dolphins
> Chuck Knox - Juniata College (PA) - 1973-1977 Los Angeles Rams, 1978-1982
> Buffalo Bills, 1983-1991 Seattle Seahawks, 1992-1994 Los Angeles Rams
>
> The fact that Jimmy Johnson couldn't get the Dolphins over the hump does
not
> help his HOF case.

Johnson is borderline....the only person on the list who is that good. When
I think of coaches, I think of guys who win multiple championships. Johnson
won 2 in Dallas. If he had a third, he would be a shoo-in.

>
> Contributors
> Ed DeBartolo, Jr. - Notre Dame - 1979-1997 San Francisco 49ers
> Art McNally - Temple - 1968-1991 National Football League
> Art Modell - 1961-1995 Cleveland Browns, 1996-Present Baltimore Ravens
> Paul Tagliabue - Georgetown, New York University - 1989-present National
> Football League
> Ralph Wilson, Jr.* - Virginia, Michigan - 1959-Present Buffalo Bills
> Ron Wolf - Georgetown, New York University - 1991-2001 Green Bay Packers
> George Young** - Bucknell University - 1979-1997 New York Giants
>
> I think his being banned from the NFL for his shady business dealings does
not
> help DeBartolo; also the whole Carmen Policy Salary Cap mess was not a
good
> thing either..

Hmm....as a Niner faithful, DeBartolo, Jr. is a very tough choice. He
helped create a team that did a lot of damage...and he helped destroy that
same team. He would not get my vote, but I wouldn't cringe if he made it.

> I would hate to see Art Modell inducted for what he did to the
> football fans of Cleveland when he moved his Browns to Baltimore; he does
not
> deserve to be inducted into the HOF but should be hung in effigy outside
every
> NFL stadium. Pete Rozelle had to wait twenty five years after he took
over as
> Commissioner before he was inducted into the HOF, and Tagliabue will
probably
> have to wait a while.

Agree with both cases.

Mpoconnor7 · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 129

>I'm probably in the minority
>>on this, but I think Herschel Walker should go into the HOF at some point.
>His
>>career stats in the NFL were hurt severely by the three years he spent in
>the
>>USFL at the start of his career. He ran roughshod over the USFL, and there
>is
>>every reason to believe that he would have done very well in the NFL. He is
>>perhaps the one player whose performance in the USFL has to be taken into
>>consideration when evaluating his career. He was IMO one of the twenty
>>greatest running backs in Pro Football history, and probably lost three
>>thousand career rushing yards that he would have gained in the NFL had he
>>stayed his final season at Georgia and had gotten two years in the NFL
>during
>>his USFL career.
>Jim Kelly: he's actually the first that comes to my mind
>when considering players whose USFL years burnished their
>records.

Yes, but Jim Kelly would have made the HOF even if he hadn't played in the
USFL, just as his USFL career will factor in Steve Young's HOF enshrinement
case.
>
>Walker deserves in: agreed.

>>I can't believe Jim Marshall is not already in there. LC Greenwood and
>Donnie
>>Shell will be the final two 70's Steelers to be inducted into the HOF.
>What do you think of Eller? Humphrey?

I think Eller should be in there as the Vikings of the late 60's and early 70's
had probably the most dominant defense in NFL history, and a great deal of that
was due to their impenetrable front line which included Jim Marshall, Eller and
Alan Page who is already inducted.

Michael O'Connor - Modern Renaissance Man

"The likelihood of one individual being correct increases in a direct
proportion to the intensity with which others try to prove him wrong"
James Mason from the movie "Heaven Can Wait".

Cameron Laird · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

In article ,
bryan K wrote:
.
.
.
>> Running Backs
>> Roger Craig - Nebraska - 1983-1990 San Francisco 49ers, 1991 Los Angeles
>> Raiders, 1992-1993 Minnesota Vikings
>> Barry Sanders# - Oklahoma State - 1989-1998 Detroit Lions
>> Herschel Walker - Georgia - 1986-1989, 1996-1997 Dallas Cowboys, 1989-1991
>> Minnesota Vikings, 1992-1994 Philadelphia Eagles, 1995 New York Giants
>>
>> Like Elway, Sanders will go in on the first try. I'm probably in the
>minority
>> on this, but I think Herschel Walker should go into the HOF at some point.
>His
>> career stats in the NFL were hurt severely by the three years he spent in
>the
>> USFL at the start of his career. He ran roughshod over the USFL, and
>there is
>> every reason to believe that he would have done very well in the NFL. He
>is
>> perhaps the one player whose performance in the USFL has to be taken into
>> consideration when evaluating his career. He was IMO one of the twenty
>> greatest running backs in Pro Football history, and probably lost three
>> thousand career rushing yards that he would have gained in the NFL had he
>> stayed his final season at Georgia and had gotten two years in the NFL
>during
>> his USFL career.
>
>Frankly, I think all three of these running backs are HOF worthy, but I have
>a feeling that Walker might be the odd man out here. I agree, his USFL
>stats should have some bearing on what he could have accomplished in the
>NFL, but he missed the Cowboys' glory days and that will loom huge. He will
>forever be overshadowed by the man who replaced him and the fact that he
>didn't live up to expectations in Minnesota. On the other hand, people will
>look at Craig's importance in the Niners' championship years of the late
>'80's.
.
.
.
Career Statistics for Roger Craig

Rushing Receiving
Year Team G Att Yds Ave TD Rec Yds Ave TD
1983 San Francisco 16 176 725 4.1 8 48 427 8.9 4
1984 San Francisco 16 155 649 4.2 7 71 675 9.5 3
1985 San Francisco 16 214 1050 4.9 9 92 1016 11.0 6
1986 San Francisco 16 204 830 4.1 7 81 624 7.7 0
1987 San Francisco 14 215 815 3.8 3 66 492 7.5 1
1988 San Francisco 16 310 1502 4.8 9 76 534 7.0 1
1989 San Francisco 16 271 1054 3.9 6 49 473 9.7 1
1990 San Francisco 11 141 439 3.1 1 25 201 8.0 0
1991 Raiders 15 162 590 3.6 1 17 136 8.0 0
1992 Minnesota 15 105 416 4.0 4 22 164 7.5 0
1993 Minnesota 14 38 119 3.1 1 19 169 8.9 1
TOT 11 Yrs 165 1991 8189 4.1 56 566 4911 8.7 17

Herschel Walker
+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Rushing | Receiving |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| Year TM | G | Att Yards Y/A TD | Rec Yards Y/R TD |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| 1986 dal | 16 | 151 737 4.9 12 | 76 837 11.0 2 |
| 1987 dal | 12 | 209 891 4.3 7 | 60 715 11.9 1 |
| 1988 dal | 16 | 361 1514 4.2 5 | 53 505 9.5 2 |
| 1989 dal | 5 | 81 246 3.0 2 | 22 261 11.9 1 |
| 1989 min | 11 | 169 669 4.0 5 | 18 162 9.0 1 |
| 1990 min | 16 | 184 770 4.2 5 | 35 315 9.0 4 |
| 1991 min | 15 | 198 825 4.2 10 | 33 204 6.2 0 |
| 1992 phi | 16 | 267 1070 4.0 8 | 38 278 7.3 2 |
| 1993 phi | 16 | 174 746 4.3 1 | 75 610 8.1 3 |
| 1994 phi | 16 | 113 528 4.7 5 | 50 500 10.0 2 |
| 1995 nyg | 16 | 31 126 4.1 0 | 31 234 7.5 1 |
| 1996 dal | 16 | 10 83 8.3 1 | 7 89 12.7 0 |
| 1997 dal | 16 | 6 20 3.3 0 | 14 149 10.6 2 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+
| TOTAL | 187 | 1954 8225 4.2 61 | 512 4859 9.5 21 |
+----------+-----+--------------------------+-------------------------+

I didn't realize how similar are the raw numbers of the two players'
NFL careers. Walker also made a significant contribution on return
teams, although I haven't found the statistics for that yet.
--

Cameron Laird
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

Gary Rosen · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 71

"Mpoconnor7" wrote in message@mb-
>
> That being said, when I saw Craig's name on the list of HOF candidates at
RB, I
> didn't think too much of it, but in retrospect, I would have to endorse
his
> eventual enshrinement in the HOF. After all, he was the lead running back
on
> three SB winning teams, and retired with what I think was the highest
reception
> total for a RB, and was the first (and the only one, I think) to get 1000
yards
> rushing and receiving in the same season. At his peak he was one of the
three
> or four best RB's in the NFL in the pre-Barry-Emmitt-Thurman era of the
> mid-late 80's.

It's really Craig's receiving that puts him over, if he goes. He was a good
runner yet not quite HOF quality for his running alone. But at the time he
was
and still remains one of the most productive RBs ever as a receiver.

- Gary Rosen

Cameron Laird · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 8

In article ,
Heavyarms wrote:
.
.
.
>Come on, Kelly went to, what, 4 Superbowls? Granted, he never won one, but
>he went to four! How many other quarterbacks have been to at least four?
>Elway, Bradshaw, who else? That's pretty good company to keep for a
>non-Hall of Famer, don't you think?
.
.
.
I think we've confused each other. Kelly had an outstanding
career in the NFL. He's in the Hall of Fame. I believe a
proper appreciation of his accomplishments recognizes what
he accomplished in the USFL, in addition to his play for the
Bills. Elway was in five Super Bowls, Montana and Staubach
four.

Apparently you believe I've denigrated what Kelly did in Buf-
falo. That sure wasn't my intention.
--

Cameron Laird
Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

Heavyarms · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 115

"Cameron Laird" wrote in message@corp.supernews.com...
> In article ,
> Heavyarms wrote:
> .
> .
> .
> >Come on, Kelly went to, what, 4 Superbowls? Granted, he never won one,
but
> >he went to four! How many other quarterbacks have been to at least four?
> >Elway, Bradshaw, who else? That's pretty good company to keep for a
> >non-Hall of Famer, don't you think?
> .
> .
> .
> I think we've confused each other. Kelly had an outstanding
> career in the NFL. He's in the Hall of Fame. I believe a
> proper appreciation of his accomplishments recognizes what
> he accomplished in the USFL, in addition to his play for the
> Bills. Elway was in five Super Bowls, Montana and Staubach
> four.
>
> Apparently you believe I've denigrated what Kelly did in Buf-
> falo. That sure wasn't my intention.
> --

Sorry, I thought you meant that Kelly's USFL stats were what helped him into
the HOF. My fault! Didn't Bradshaw go to four also, or was it three?
Sheesh, he went to my alma mater and I can't remember.....

>
> Cameron Laird
> Business: http://www.Phaseit.net

user · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 7

Here's my 2004 Hall Of Fame list:

John Elway
Ken Stabler
Barry Sanders
Bob Brown
Jim Marshall
Jack Tatum
Ray Guy

Heavyarms · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 115

"Kurgan Gringioni" wrote in
message $qj6.5508375@news1.news.adelphia.net...
>
> "Heavyarms" wrote in message
> @corp.supernews.com...
> >
> > Sorry, I thought you meant that Kelly's USFL stats were what helped him
> into
> > the HOF. My fault! Didn't Bradshaw go to four also, or was it three?
> > Sheesh, he went to my alma mater and I can't remember.....
>
>
>
> Bradshaw went to and won 4 Super Bowls.
>
>

Thanks.

Kurgan Gringioni · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 66

"Heavyarms" wrote in message@corp.supernews.com...
>
> Sorry, I thought you meant that Kelly's USFL stats were what helped him
into
> the HOF. My fault! Didn't Bradshaw go to four also, or was it three?
> Sheesh, he went to my alma mater and I can't remember.....

Bradshaw went to and won 4 Super Bowls.

Tarkus · Joined: 06 Aug 2007 Posts: 167

On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 15:47:31 GMT, Kurgan Gringioni wrote:

> Bradshaw went to and won 4 Super Bowls.

Yeah, but he couldn't spell CAT if you spotted him the C and the T. Wink

--
"Everybody knows who Priest Holmes is and what he's capable of doing. I
mean, the guy runs like a deer. He's hopping over guys...he kind of
runs with a spring about him and he plays with a swagger. He's probably
the best running back in the NFL and he knows it." - Plaxico Burress

Now playing: "UFO - Rock Bottom"